If he is not a qualified electrician then why on earth is he allowed to carry out this work. No one I know would let it happen. If he hurts anyone or himself then someone is in line for a charge of cooperate manslaughter. Does he or you or anyone in management have any idea what the Electricity at Work act is about?

With respect...Stop him!

Employ an electrical firm or an electrician.

Personally I do not see a problem if they are installing like for like and provided the power is isolated.

Presumably as they already maintain other equipment they will already have been trained in isolation and lock off procedures.

If it were a 3 phase motor well then I could foresee problems.

For starters you are at 415 volts and also if not careful its easy to get the rotation incorrect. With subsequent damage to other components.

Its many many years since I had my hands on the tools but I had seen even experienced electricians having to look twice when reinstalling 3 phase motors.

But as I said that’s only my opinion I am sure others will differ

listen to Zimmy

For example...Does he have the correct test kit to test safety of the unit? I bet not?Does he know how to use the correct test kit? Not a chance as you cannot sit the G&G 2391 (as was) without being a qualified electrician. Does he have a any idea of safe isolation? Locking off/testing/GS38?

230v across the body will kill (50v ac being considered dangerous)

RCD's do NOT switch when a load/body is between phase and neutral

Anyone who even suggests that 230v is not a lethal voltage does not have a clue what they are talking about.

I hope I'm getting the point across here before someone gets killed or worse, they kill an innocent person.

Johnld, please, if you think there is no problem here, with as much respect as I can drag up from the pit of my tummy...Keep out of this one as only experienced electricians/test inspectors and electrical safety people should comment on this. There is no room here for and unqualified opinion. Electrical facts only.

No offence intended but I bet I have put a nose out of joint here. If this post gets ripped off the screen the mods can have the badge back

Zimmy,
Another one is try putting yourself in series with the load & supply, now that hurts!!!


All, also please remember the BS7671 AKA the 17th edition does NOT apply to machinery typically covered by the Machinery Directive, in case you were not aware.


JHF,
Please ensure you select a competent electrician, not just a qualified electrician.
Machinery, industrial & commercial works have a very different set of challenges to domestic work, there are many qualified electricians out there who are only competent to undertake domestic works.

Finally, please ensure that the electrician you select is actually qualified, and competent to undertake the works you require.

There are thousands of "so called", self proclaimed electricians out there at the moment who have only undertaken around 5 weeks of training and have come from a completely unrelated field, perhaps say a chef. (This is not a dig at chefs, it's just the first job that came to mind as I'm eating my dinner!)
It is not possible to become competent in all aspects of electrical installations in buildings in 5 weeks, let alone all of the other aspects of electrical engineering sufficiently to be called a qualified electrician.
There is a reason that apprenticeships were 4/5 years + college!

We had a similar situation here.

I took the advice of some of the posters here. The ones with electrical experience- as they are the ones that know more about it than I.

Andy

Competercy does not mean going to college, you can have a qualified person overview his work and create a compitency file for him by practical assessment. I do this alot as competency is very difficult to prove in my industry

From this statement this is a simple "monkey see - monkey do". "Motor out - motor in" WITH ISOLATION to boot. This task is more about torque loading nuts onto studs than rewiring, for heavens sake.

Fully qualified electrician? REALLY? And you expect UK industry to recover from a double-dip recession with this line of thought?

What about plumbers then?
What about a car fitter replacing an alternator in a car?

No wonder we get the mickey taken out of us and called the fun police.

JHF. I was responsible electrical engineer on a large industrial site Many years ago we had demarcation between trades, mechanical / electrical /& Instruments. We don't have that luxuary now. So most have been retrained into technician trades. Mechanicals are taught how to remove 3ph motors and do small electrical jobs. E&I's were given mechanical skills. So dual trading / multiskilling is common now.
However someone in management or supervision has to 'sign off' each individual as being competent in XY&Z. We certainly used formal training organisations to provide the necessary training skills in E or M. They must also be given firm guidelines as to what they cannot (must not) do without reference to higher authority.
Depending upon your full circumstances the maintenance man should be able to do specific defined tasks /jobs within the plant. You will need to write & document your procedures.
best wishes Peter

No one will get hurt. No one will die. No RIDDORs will be submitted. No visits from the HSE will result. Why not, well you see it's a bit like a NEBOSH exam question. You have to read it (the post) and see what was actually asked for. The wigglies are off (isolated) we are all going to be fine. There is nothing wrong with mechanical type fitters/engineers making good electrical connectors in this situation.

Now granted they need to be shown how to do it. Granted they need to know what a defective connector looks like and granted they need to know that they are naughty boys of girls if they try and mend it. Yes, I would recommend having stage checks by a supervisor, no problems there. BUT, there is no need to go OTT here (mountains out of mole hills springs to mind). The sparkies can be free to get on with the more complicated tasks.

Just plain common sense really if you ask me.

Do I hear the sound track from the good the bad and the ugly? Yep.

Crack on then.

You have been told the answer by someone who teaches the subject, is a qualified electrician (and then some) an NVQ electrical assessor and lecturer in C&G 17th, 2391 and 2400 not to mention NEBOSH occ and construction. You pays your money (oops I didn't charge for this did I) so off you go. No wonder so many electricians are out of work, the cowboys are employed by so-called safety pros.

In some ways this is not dissimilar to a discussion myself and an engineer had with the HSE over CORGIS interpretation of the Gas Regulations which restricted the implementation of a more flexible approach to the annual servicing of large gas boilers, which were located in residential accommodation. The CORGI interpretation was that any work on the boilers must only be carried out by a CORGI registered person.

Basically the letter we had back from the HSE said that provided the boiler was isolated and taken off line before work started any fitter who was competant could carry out the servicing work. But before being brought back on line the normal gas safety checks were to be carried out by a registered person.

I do appreciate that CORGI are no longer providing registration.

Wow! I'll refrain from commenting about any individual's previously expressed opinion on this one and simply state how my organisation deals with this type of situation.

We provide commissioning, service and repairs on pumps and pumping systems. As such we change quite a few motors - single-phase and three-phase - in your average year. A handful of our guys are qualified electricians the majority are not. For a simple removal and replacement of a motor (as discussed in the OP)I would have no qualms about sending any of our engineers. The only types of jobs where we'd not consider using anyone other than a 'qualified electrician' would be those involving a new installation or those involving in panel fault diagnosis.

The regs clearly require competence. They don't require qualifications. As we all know........(don't we?) qualifications can be a component of 'competence' but are only part of the overall.

I have been involved in an investigation following the death by electrocution of an employee and I don't want to go through similar again but I do not lose any sleep about our policy of using some of our 'mechanical' guys on some 'electrical' work. Equally I'm content that I can prove them to be competent and that they know their own limitations.

see you in court then :-) zzzzzzzz time for a nap

Ok, you've sucked me in............

People willing to make RAs that they're not qualified make........our RAs are drafted by me and reviewed/revised in accordance with inputs from Operations Manager, Service Supervisor and Senior Engineers (both Elec and Mech). I am a qualified Electronics Engineer as well as H&S professional so I reckon to 'have a clue' about matters electrical.

Play with electricity........it's not a game and none of our engineers treat it as such. On balance I'd say that I trust most of our mechanical guys more than some of the electrical guys because they realise what they don't know and therefore are a bit more methodical in their approach. One or two of the electricians seem to creep into some bad habits and need to be reigned in from time to time.

Do they test?........yes.

With what?........a proving unit. Again the mech guys seem fine with this but I find electricians reluctant to use the proving units and just like to stick with their DVM or clamp-meter to prove dead. But they're qualified.

Prove competence how.......initial training and assessment followed by on-going periodic observation.

You people treat electricity.......tried using sweeping generalisations much?

I've said all I need to say on this.........that's up to you. You are entitled to hold your view and you are entitled to implement policies and procedures within your organisation as you see fit. Just because you hold strong opinions does not make everyone else's view worthless if it doesn't align with your own. Opinions. I respect your right to express yours in whatever terms suit you but I'm much less to be persuaded by the arguments of anyone who comes across as having such an entrenched view.......but you won't care about that anyway.

Have a wonderful weekend everyone.

This forum is full with well intended but flawed advice. Enough is enough. Over and out.

I have followed this thread with interest.  Zimmy, you clearly have a passion for your electrical work but I can’t help but feel that you also sometimes need to take a step back, don’t fire from the hip quite so often, and accept that other people may very well have a valid opinion, even if it differs from your own.  This isn’t always obvious in your posts and you appear quick to post remarks that are bordering on treating other members with utter contempt.    e.g. your use of ‘cowboys’ and ‘so called health and safety pros’ etc.  Similarly, ‘alarmist’ posts are unhelpful; I am intrigued at your ability to be able to predict that a specific member WILL kill someone!!!   

The one thing I have learnt over the years, and posting on this forum, is that it is easy to become entrenched in a position and lose sight of what is being asked.  I consider that my job, among other things, is to give thoughtful, measured, objective advice that has considered the pros and cons of one approach over another and taking into account the overall risks and benefits to the business, not just H &S.  It is not to FORCE my opinion on others or to behave in a manner that suggests that others opinions are worthless.           

You seem to be suggesting that ANY work remotely connected with electricity or electrical systems MUST ONLY be done by a qualified electrician.  As others have observed or intimated this isn’t necessarily the case.     

Of course there will also be ‘qualified’ electricians who aren’t necessarily competent to do a number of elements of electrical work, probably including changing some motors.  The fact is that it is for each and every employer to justify their actions, (or inactions), including who they determine to be competent to do what.  Without doubt some employers don’t properly consider this, it won’t even enter into the minds of many, some will have carefully considered this but the HSE and/or the court may subsequently disagree, and some will be overly risk averse and employ ‘specialists’ to do work when  they don’t necessarily need to.    

So I would tend to agree with a number of others here, that a motor change doesn’t necessarily need a qualified electrician and the EAR (not Act) doesn’t necessarily require this either.   

And you are right that some ‘advice’ on this forum is ‘flawed’ but you know what, sometimes we ALL need to take a step back, take a few breathes and look at our own ‘advice’ – me included, and perhaps even you! 

We must be the pioneers to ensure both academic and practical competences are in sync to make theses decisions. There exist no room for error in the field of electrical work,without the necessary competencies the employee may not able to recognise all the hazards that are associated with this particular environment.Hence ensure all work done by any such persons are to be inspected by a qualified and competent person befor switching on power supply.Accidents can be prevented long before they occured.
Jags

As a regulator HSE Electrical, competence is task specific someone working in domestic would need additional training to work in commercial etc. On the question I would support a mechanical engineer changing a motor with a local isolator either 3 phase or single.
Provided they had the correct equipment and know how to use it, it aint that hard red to red as my mechanical colleagues remind me ! I haven't the heart to correct them its obviously brown to brown.
I would expect limitations on the work to be in place damaged covers or cables possible remote isolation may require additional experience. A man or woman must know their limitations and be confident they will be supported if they feel they are been asked to go beyond them. Many incidents are caused by persons going beyond their remit to satisfy an irate customer.
To put it in perspective in the next year or two something like 5 million electrical meters are to be replaced in UK homes by persons with one days training which is infinitely more scary