Rank: Forum user
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Hi Guys
I hope there is someone out three who has made sense of the 1) Good Loo Design Guide 2004 and
2) BS8300:2009 design of Buildings and theit approaches to meet the needs of disabled people - Code of Practice.
In 1) it states with reference to BS8300 the following: "Where the drop down rail does not have vertical support struts, it should be capable of bearing weight of 171kg applied both vertically and at 45 degrees to the vertical as well as sigificant lateral force."
in 2) section 12.2.4 Fixed grab rails and drop-down support rails it states: "Note 1 The Good Loo Design Guide recommends that drop-down rails be capable of supporting a load of 171kg applied both vertically and at 45 degrees."
Neither document goes on to explain how to do this testing. I have spoken to a company that does testing on disabled lifts, patient hoists etc and they don't know what it means. They asked "45 degrees to what? Vertical, horizontal, to the side?".
Has anyone any experience in this type of testing and if so would you mind sharing your testing regime and description of how it is done with me?
Thanks in advance
Son Of Skywalker
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Rank: Forum user
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You need only seek to acquire the parts off the shelf where the packaging will state that it complies with and meets the requirements of the BS8300.
This type of testing is carried out at production and pre issue for sale level, usually involving both Applied Mechanics Theory and Practical Dynamic Testing to ensure compliance. Applied Mechanics Theory involves the mathematics of dynamic weight/mass/movement and the practical element of the test will test that the theory has worked, usually by applying loads via mass weights and spring-balance gauges etc.
Re the discussion on vertical/45 Degrees; I should say 45 Degrees to the vertical is the answer, given that the final assembly location is designed to offer the user support/lift, just think for a moment about lowering to the toilet seat. The 45 Degree lateral load will (I think) have to include full radial sweep, hence the "as well as significant lateral force" text inclusion.
It's been some time since I was involved in this type of load testing application but it is an applied and still used testing method at the R & D stage of development for a large inventory of items across a broad spectrum.
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Rank: Super forum user
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The loadings have to be achieved by design, but I'm not aware of any specific requirement to test the installation?
It seems somewhat obvious to me that the loading is considering the vertical (i.e. bearing the weight of the person). Thereafter, 45 degrees becomes even more obvious!
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Rank: Super forum user
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I am truly amazed at your installers!!! The standard requires the ability to withstand a downward thrust in the vertical plane of 171kg the 45 degree thrust can be measured from the horizontal or vertical plane because it is halfway between the two!!! The requirement is that there should be also no significant outward or inward movement of the rails when force is applied to them.
The variables are:
a) The design of the rail,
b) The fixing method
c) The substrate to which things are affixed.
In general terms those rails with drop down legs are easier to manage from the strength point of view and have far less reliance on the fixing and the substrate to achieve security.
I seriously think you need to look closely at your supplier and designers here.
By the way you must not omit the Building Regs requirements as there are basic requirements set out in Part M approved document. I will not start on the weak enforcement of this document except to say that it does state that "where the disabled toilet is unisex it should not be used for another purpose except the disabled" - this includes baby changing, although many BR insectors ignore this by confusing themselves that they cannot do this on account of the Equality Act 2010.
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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"where the disabled toilet is unisex it should not be used for another purpose except the disabled" - this includes baby changing"
Does this allow the able bodied to change the nappy of their disabled child and the disabled parent to change the nappy of their able bodied child?
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Rank: Forum user
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Thanks for the responses so far.
I am glad that the 45 degrees angle question is giving the answers matching my own.
Ron
There must be an inherent requirement to test an installation of a disabled toilet support bar. I have encountered numerous failures from the screws, washers, bolts etc used for fitting the back plate, failures caused by fitting into thin wood, plasterboard etc. If for example (hypothetical) there is a failure and the HSE are involved in an investigation how do you prove that you have been checking and maintaining the equipment?
GTM
The Good Loo Design Guide and the BS8300 both identify that testing should be done not just at production. How else can you determine that the fitting and set-up is safe and secure.
Bob
I didn't say that anyone was "the installer" of the disabled toilet support bar. I am merely asking a question so don't be so quick to attack. Your statement "I seriously think you need to look closely at your supplier and designers here" is not helpful in a discussion forum setting.
Let's also try to stay on topic re the testing of the disabled toilet support bars rather than go off on a tangent about who can and cannot use a disabled toilet.
I can't be the only person questioning what should be getting done to ensure that disabled toilets support bars are safe for use and fit for purpose.
Son Of Skywalker
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Rank: Forum user
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I am really looking to see if there is something similar to the topple test, that is undertaken for head stones in cemeteries, but is for testing the support bars in disabled toilets.
Son Of Skywalker
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Rank: Super forum user
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Yes I was off tangent but ultimately the best way to keep disabled toilets in good condition is to ensure the disabled only make use of them.
I did fire before I really read the question though:-) Clearly a test by people who do not know what they are doing is not much use! It really goes back to the point that bars with drop down legs are far less likely to fail, rarely need more than visual inspection for fixing or operational defects and do not need any form of load testing. Hence ask the designer why he chose this equipment as opposed to others hat are easier to maintain. If you think load tests may be needed then replacement witha different design would be cheaper ultimately as their cost is relatively small.
Redken
Strictly yes as a disabled infant can be handled by a carer on a baby changing table. Once the table is too small then the use of disabled toilets is the option.
Bob
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