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m  
#1 Posted : 08 November 2012 10:26:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
m

Whilst I am not going to comment on the content of the case I am concerned that this charge relates to an incident that occurred in July 2010. Why does this take so long to come to court? For the act to gain credibility the CPS needs to get up to speed.
peter gotch  
#2 Posted : 08 November 2012 12:53:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

M This is markedly quicker than most prosecutions following fatalities.
walker  
#3 Posted : 08 November 2012 13:51:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

I notice its only a "small firm" so relatively easy to prove. CPS seem to be scared of tackling anyone of any significance.
Clairel  
#4 Posted : 08 November 2012 14:32:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

walker wrote:
I notice its only a "small firm" so relatively easy to prove.
That seems like a very throw away comment. How would you know how complex the case has been to investigate and to put together a water tight case if you haven't been involved in it?
RayRapp  
#5 Posted : 08 November 2012 20:50:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Claire, I think walker was alluding to the fact that it is easier to satisfy the tests inherent in the CMA with small organisations. This is true and especially the senior management test which is required for a successful prosecution. We still wait for the day when large organisations (MNEs) are charged with CM, but don't hold your breath.
walker  
#6 Posted : 09 November 2012 08:26:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

RayRapp wrote:
Claire, I think walker was alluding to the fact that it is easier to satisfy the tests inherent in the CMA with small organisations. This is true and especially the senior management test which is required for a successful prosecution. We still wait for the day when large organisations (MNEs) are charged with CM, but don't hold your breath.
Thanks Ray, I hope most people here realised that too
Canopener  
#7 Posted : 09 November 2012 12:23:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

M, you haven’t mentioned the case in question, which would help to inform the discussion. But, some cases do take some considerable time to come to trial for any number of different reasons, and not necessarily the 'fault' of the CPS. I am not quite so convinced as others that the ‘test’ is likely to be significantly different for different ‘sizes’ of employer, although as always, I am happy to be wrong (or at least have a differing opinion).
Bruce Sutherland  
#8 Posted : 09 November 2012 12:59:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Bruce Sutherland

Perhaps the issue is that the legislation was meant to be to deal with the difficulty of prosecuting large companies and yet it seems to be used against small business where the chain of direction / command / mens rea (if feeling learned / posh) is obvious! I think gathering the evidence against larger business will be an interesting exercise under FFI as it will generally involve an enormous fishing trip as " culture" is so wide a term and it is not like looking for a missing 6 monthly chain ticket
peter gotch  
#9 Posted : 09 November 2012 13:08:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Canopener Details at http://www.shponline.co....h-corporate-manslaughter Bruce "learned / posh" - the "controlling mind". I think it was Tesco v Nattrass?
Bruce Sutherland  
#10 Posted : 09 November 2012 13:49:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Bruce Sutherland

Peter I think it was "beaten" into me "not learnt" but for my sins I did manage a Latin O level so I could probably have worked it out without the beating - it is quite sad how much useless information one manages to retain and yet still manage to forget to buy what you were sent to the Supermarket for ...... either age or not enough beatings to influence the behaviour I suppose. Are we still allowed corporal punishment as an influence under modern behavioural safety management systems? Problem I guess is that could be both reward or threat? Suppose I had better try to finish this really tedious survey ...........
Canopener  
#11 Posted : 09 November 2012 16:49:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Thank you for the link. As I understand it the 'directing mind' test isn't (so) relevant to CMCHA as it was to CLCM. The inability to establish the Mens Rea was the 'get out of jail free card' for larger organisations clause' and this was a major driving force behind CMCHA; wasn't it?
walker  
#12 Posted : 12 November 2012 08:31:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

canopener wrote:
Thank you for the link. As I understand it the 'directing mind' test isn't (so) relevant to CMCHA as it was to CLCM. The inability to establish the Mens Rea was the 'get out of jail free card' for larger organisations clause' and this was a major driving force behind CMCHA; wasn't it?
Yes, that's what I understood. And it still remains untested.
RayRapp  
#13 Posted : 12 November 2012 20:35:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

The CMA does in effect aggregate the mens rea or controlling mind test via the senior management test. Originally the White Paper introducing corporate manslaughter only referred to a 'management failure'. For whatever reason the senior management test was introduced to the Act and could yet prove to be a major hurdle in prosecuting large organisations.
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