Rank: Super forum user 
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When using a step ladder, should a person not go any higher than having their waist level with the platform or are their knees or shins resting against the platform deemed suffice for 3 point contact?
I have seen INDG402 and i have always followed the advice shown in the HSE pictures for different type of steps showing the waist is more or less the cut off point.
I have been made aware of a training company who say knees or even shins is ok but imo, that is going too high.
Has there been any changes discussed in the proposed update of the W@H Regs?
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I go by waist/ standing on no higher than 3rd rung from the top
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Not aware of anything to do with the platform in relation to the body (surely that would allow too much variation according to the size of the person?).
Usual rule is not on the top two steps of the stepladder unless there is a handrail. Or not on the top three steps of a double sided stepladder.
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When in doubt, refer to the manufacturers instructions - they can generally be found on a big sticker on the legs of the steps.
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Thanks all. As long as INDG402 is still current and nobody is aware of any proposed changes, i'll keep giving this info out as such.
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Just checked and INDG 402 says exactly what I said (see para 22 I think it was), nothing about the stepladder in relation to parts of the body.
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Clairel wrote:Just checked and INDG 402 says exactly what I said (see para 22 I think it was), nothing about the stepladder in relation to parts of the body. Cheers Claire. I did say in the OP i had seen INDG402 and the relevant pictures showing the waist is 'more or less' the cut off point. It might slightly differ for both Peter Crouch and one of Ken Dodd's Diddymen. Have you heard about any proposed changes to the Work @ Height Regs?
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We follow the rule of not using the top 2 / 3 rungs as stated in the guidance.
Are you asking of proposed changes to the WAHR re stepladder use? The regs aren't (and wouldn't be) that specific therefore if a change were due it would be in the guidance document, which I'm not aware of.
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Frankc, as a working electrician (on times) waste height and no more mate.
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I'm thinking aloud here. If the guidance is that the top 2 or 3 rungs should not be used is there a case to manufacture ladders with the top rungs "removed" ? Several potential gains; temptation to climb too high removed..... Reduced weight of the ladder with resultant manual handling gain.... Reduced materials with production cost reduction and hopefully reduced cost to purchase...... Reduced manufacturing cost in terms of energy consumption resulting in more electrickry for the rest of us and ultimately, one rung at a time the planet will be saved. Just thinking!
Ok, the last one is a bit daft but it's a thought,
Jim
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If the top 2/3 rungs are removed wouldn't that take away one of the three points of contact, and also add the risk of slipping between the ladder and whatever it is leaning against?
Phil W
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Removing the top 2/3 rungs may also weaken the strength of the ladder, though I can see the reasoning behind it. Maybe swapping the top 2/3 for diagonal/crossed struts would still allow the point of contact/stop the risk of slipping through and maintain the strength, whilst effectively preventing access? I'll wait to see the concept on Dragon's Den in the near future :-)
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Deeps has a point here. It makes sense to me. I think I'll take a little yellow pill and hide in the corner...
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Hi, I've been looking into this, reviewing our SOP, policy an RA and read this yesterday. On the following link the HSE say 'body', which I took to mean torso and therefore waist IMO. http://www.hse.gov.uk/fa...tepladderthreepoints.htmAlso, the fact that you shouldn't use the top 2 or 3 rungs, that distance implies waist also. Following from the latter comments if any rungs are missing / removed, I would say the ladder is unsafe and should be disposed of and replacement purchased !
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a) I think you will find that people are asking why the stepladders are manufactured with higher steps than can be safely used. Noit suggesting that anyone removes them from exisiting stepladders!
b) Your linked page is in reference to three points of contact. The torso is used as the third point of contact (which is not the same reason for not using the top 2 or 3 steps of the step ladders, which does in fact relate to centre of gravity)
I'm really not sure I understand why people are trying to complicate something that is not complicated. Why bring in waist / knees / shins in relation to height on a stepladder when the HSE instead uses number of steps as the guide?
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Continuing this discussion, my question relating to ladders and stepladders is :-
Whilst reading around the topic, I noticed a large number of comments regarding to Safe Working Limits written on to Ladders / Step Ladders - but can find no reference to this requirement in any guidance.
What are peoples opinion on this requirement ?
I generated the policy that, as they should only be used for light work, that they should only be used for one person plus 10kg max.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated !
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Sorry, another comment requested on this topic !
Guidance says to use Class 1 (Industrial) at work and that Class 3 (Domestic) is 'not normally' suitable.
This leaves Class 2 (Light Trade) as not mentioned, but reading between the lines, my policy that Class 2 (we do have some of these on site) is suitable dependant in RA for the work involved.
Thanks again :)
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Adrian STACI wrote:Continuing this discussion, my question relating to ladders and stepladders is :-
Whilst reading around the topic, I noticed a large number of comments regarding to Safe Working Limits written on to Ladders / Step Ladders - but can find no reference to this requirement in any guidance.
INDG402 should give you all the info you require, Adrian.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Clairel wrote:
I'm really not sure I understand why people are trying to complicate something that is not complicated. Why bring in waist / knees / shins in relation to height on a stepladder when the HSE instead uses number of steps as the guide?
I did ask for leniency on another thread but..... You have probably (indirectly) answered one of the concerns of why some consider it to be the waist of a person by your 'centre of gravity' comment. Like Zimmy, i have had a fair bit of experience on step ladders (mine during a previous career) but a person who is 7ft tall may not be safe using the guidance given in INDG402 due to his C of G being different to mine....and that's where it appears complicated to me.
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Thanks Frank.
INDG402 says nothing about SWL written on ladders - which answers the facts of the question, I suppose, along with the fact that it does talk about a maximium of 10kg for the operator to carry up whilst using the ladder. Hence my proposed policy to the company.
My real question (apologies if I phrased it badly) was requesting comments about other peoples interpretation of the guidance and any criticism (hopefully constructive !) about my interpretation.
Regards,
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frankc wrote:Clairel wrote:
I'm really not sure I understand why people are trying to complicate something that is not complicated. Why bring in waist / knees / shins in relation to height on a stepladder when the HSE instead uses number of steps as the guide?
I did ask for leniency on another thread but..... Oh don't be so ridiculous. Is no one allowed to question the opinion of others now? Ridiculous >:(
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Clairel,
You could argue that telling someone that their feet and waist are the three points of contact on all stepladders is simpler than telling them that they have to leave the top two rungs free on this sort of stepladder and the top three rungs on that sort of step ladder.
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Rank: Super forum user
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No because they are talking about different things.
You could have two feet and one had as the three points of contact but you would still not be allowed to use the top 2 or 3 runs of the ladder.
The three points of contact is about stability of the person yet the top 2/ 3 rungs of the step ladder is about stability of the step ladder.
The HSE have said about using your torso as a third point of contact in answer to the questions about how on earth someone could (for example) drill a hole whilst on a step ladder and maintain 3 points of contact.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Personally I would say thighs but it is Friday an nearly home time!
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Clairel wrote:frankc wrote:Clairel wrote:
I'm really not sure I understand why people are trying to complicate something that is not complicated. Why bring in waist / knees / shins in relation to height on a stepladder when the HSE instead uses number of steps as the guide?
I did ask for leniency on another thread but..... Oh don't be so ridiculous. Is no one allowed to question the opinion of others now? Ridiculous >:( Yes they are Claire...unless the opinion is yours, apparently. I asked the original question and it appears people with experience of using step ladders in their work have heard of ensuring the waist is somewhere near the top rung or platform. You said you had not heard of this and added it doesn't mention it in the guidance. It is obviously what people who use ladders choose as best practice. You correctly mentioned the C of G and i asked again about the difference of a person of 'normal height' or a person who is 7ft tall. Would it not be reasonable to accept there is more chance of the 7ft person toppling over due to a higher C of G? If not, this is even more complicated than i thought. ;-)
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frankc wrote:
Yes they are Claire...unless the opinion is yours, apparently.
You see you're being ridiculous again. People can and do question my opinion all the time. Doesn't mean I won't try and back up my opinion. Just as every one else is doing with their own opinion. That is what discussion is about. You bringing up the subject of 'leniancy' (from the context of another thread) was completely uncalled for. I wasn't being nasty, derogatory or insulting to the knowledge of others I was just questioning the logic of what others were saying. Ironically it was your comment that seemed to be nothing more than an attempt to inflame the situation unecessarily so.
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Old zimmy is 6-3 and waste height works for me and all the short bottoms I work with seem happy with that too. The remaining steps are are for storing grub and cans of pop :-)
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Clairel wrote:
You bringing up the subject of 'leniancy' (from the context of another thread) was completely uncalled for. I wasn't being nasty, derogatory or insulting to the knowledge of others I was just questioning the logic of what others were saying.
I used the 'L' word after you posted this. "I'm really not sure I understand why people are trying to complicate something that is not complicated. Why bring in waist / knees / shins in relation to height on a stepladder when the HSE instead uses number of steps as the guide?" As that was my original title, it was fair to assume that was aimed at me. Back to subject though.... If someone finds something complicated, they ask a question on here. I am yet to receive a response to my question about whether a 7ft tall person using a step ladder is potentially more at risk of overbalancing than someone of, let's say 5ft 8ins? IMO, it must be, due to his or her centre of gravity. I still find that complicated, as ridiculous as that may seem to some.
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