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Hi all - your comments on this please ; do you think it is acceptable for a woodworker/carpenter to use carpentry equipment such as saws etc when lone working given they are provided with the appropriate information, instruction and training along with emergency procedures. THE MD went ballistic when the manager of the woodshop closed it for the day because the carpenter would be working alone with potential hazardous equipment t- what is your view on this??
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Daisy
Was the chippie working alone (no one else in the shop) or lone working (no one else on site within earshot if he injured himself)?
LB
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DaisyMaisy wrote:Hi all - your comments on this please ; do you think it is acceptable for a woodworker/carpenter to use carpentry equipment such as saws etc when lone working given they are provided with the appropriate information, instruction and training along with emergency procedures. THE MD went ballistic when the manager of the woodshop closed it for the day because the carpenter would be working alone with potential hazardous equipment t- what is your view on this??
Hi Daisy,
Are there other occupied buildings on the site in relatively close proximity? If you have manned security or reception it shouldn't be too difficult to fit CCTV or a motion sensor?
Generally speaking, the presence of somebody else isn't likely to reduce the risk of an accident, just minimise the response time and limit potential subsequent effects of an injury.
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Daisy,
Based on what you have posted, I am with the MD. "Lone Working" is one of those terms that over time gets over interpreted and over managed. Along with, for example, a "confined space" as defined in the guidance and a "confined space" as interpreted by some enthusiasts,
Jim
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If acceptable safety measures cannot be implemented any other way, and this is likely to be a regular occurrence, would not a 'man down' personal alarm for the lone worker be a potential solution?
Seems a bit drastic to me for the wood shop to be closed due to lone working when there are so many measures that could be put in place to ensure the safety of the individual.
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nickh wrote:If acceptable safety measures cannot be implemented any other way, and this is likely to be a regular occurrence, would not a 'man down' personal alarm for the lone worker be a potential solution?
Seems a bit drastic to me for the wood shop to be closed due to lone working when there are so many measures that could be put in place to ensure the safety of the individual.
this has been my argument. We are looking at the alarm. in response to other posts, there isnt another contact within hearing distance the site is on its own. there is a showroom related to the workshop about 500 yards away so if there was an emergency procedure it would not be long before help arrived - do you think phone specifically and directly to the other site would suffice?
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Not much use if the chippies out cold.
I'd opt for the personal alarm or the motion sensor
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leadbelly wrote:Daisy
Was the chippie working alone (no one else in the shop) or lone working (no one else on site within earshot if he injured himself)?
LB
no one else on site and no one in ear shot
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It is not against the law to work in joinery shop on your own. If it were many joiners (who are frequently the sole worker) would be up a creek without a paddle.
Whilst it would be nice to not have lone working it is not a requirement and you have to be realistic.
If it makes you feel better, wearing my old hat, I inspected a lot of sole traders who were joiners and I never batted an eyelid.
Most people have a phone about nowadays and whilst that might not help if the person became unconscious it is normally considered to be adequate.
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Safety Smurf wrote:Not much use if the chippies out cold.
I'd opt for the personal alarm or the motion sensor
or - manager calling from other site every 30 mins and if no response follow up with visit??
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30 minutes is a long time if you're bleeding heavily and can't raise the alarm manually.
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DaisyMaisy wrote:Safety Smurf wrote:Not much use if the chippies out cold.
I'd opt for the personal alarm or the motion sensor
or - manager calling from other site every 30 mins and if no response follow up with visit??
I can see your reasoning Daisy but I don't personally think that would be;
A) workable
B) Useful
How many people are in the sales office? could one of them go and work in the workshop on those occasions when the chippy is on their own?
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OK, lets give this another go. If the workshop is properly fitted out, the chippy has all the tools he requires, work benches, lighting, machine gurading, suitable power supplies, ventilation (the list goes on) to ensure the work shop is safe and he is a competent chippy; what are the odds on him having an accident that results in him being unable to summon help? If on the other hand the workshop is not fit for purpose the last thing you want to worry about is lone working issues.
Jim
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nickh wrote:30 minutes is a long time if you're bleeding heavily and can't raise the alarm manually.
But equally a pain in the butt if you're trying to get work done.
I think you're being abit OTT myself. How do you think remote workers cope?
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ExDeeps wrote:OK, lets give this another go. If the workshop is properly fitted out, the chippy has all the tools he requires, work benches, lighting, machine gurading, suitable power supplies, ventilation (the list goes on) to ensure the work shop is safe and he is a competent chippy; what are the odds on him having an accident that results in him being unable to summon help? If on the other hand the workshop is not fit for purpose the last thing you want to worry about is lone working issues.
Jim
exactly ExDeeps - this is my view too, but would it bve sufficient if there isnt an emergency procedure as such? i,.e. phone contact. In response to previous post - the showroom is 500 yards away and often only 2 people on site and for obvious reasons 2 people minimum in showroom at one time.
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Clairel wrote:nickh wrote:30 minutes is a long time if you're bleeding heavily and can't raise the alarm manually.
But equally a pain in the butt if you're trying to get work done.
I think you're being abit OTT myself. How do you think remote workers cope?
Indeed - I agree with both of your posts. I did type a part about sole traders in my initial response, but decided not to post it - perhaps I should have done. However; to a certain degree, IMHO that would be a different scanario.
If there are concerns about ensuring safety of the individual, which seems to be the crux of the matter; then if any/ all other safety measures still leave an element of doubt, then I still stand by my suggestion of a man down alarm.
In essence though, if all guards/ isolators/ cut off mechanisms are in place; and the chippie is qualified/ experienced; I'd suggest the likelihood of a serious incident whereby they would not be able to reach help/ raise the alarm would be low.
Ultimately, I just cannot see any reason why the wood shop should be closed simply becuase of lone working.
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Hi Daisy,
Depends on the machinery and the tasks the joiner will be using and carrying out IMO; if we are talking about general traditional joinery work i.e handtools, sanders etc. and limited smaller machinery (mortices, narrow bandsaws, sanders) then I would be inclined to say with the right controls and measures then it would be possible to work on their tod..........
...however; when getting into the real meaty machinery like moulders, panel saws, stenner bandsaws, spindle moulders, thicknessers, beam saws etc then it would be a definate no-no for me.
As boring as it is, its back to assessing the tasks to be undertaken; but I would certainly allow some works to be carried out lone working.
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Hi,
I think you may need to have a conversation with your MD to reassure them that you have completed a risk assessment showing what you recommend can still be done and what needs to be put in place to get certain tasks done and continue working (passably in a reduced manner),
Look at: What actually would be a risk and why, look at mitigating the risk by putting controls in place. I once worked on a machine that was malfunctioning obviously contained to preventing anyone entering the working parts, basically the fitters could not see the machine functioning and the wily old Safety Manager took off the guards and had perspex ones made still compliant and able to see the machinery inside.
For each task apply a hierarchy of control, i.e.would a malfunction be a hazard to the operative, prevent them doing that task etc. etc.
You need evidence that the company has looked at the task and made a suitable and sufficient risk assessment and has measure in place in the event of anything going wrong
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Thanks all - very interesting useful and informative responses. A serious look at the assessment in need. Easiest solution I guess would be to- make sure that two of the three carpenters on site are working at any one time therefore removing the lone working option. Just needs a bit more management of holidays, time etc I think! But I am looking t following up the assessments as this wont always be possible realistically. Thanks again all. As always very useful and helpful.
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In my view unless your systems, training, competences etc. were really water tight if a person died [which is easily foreseeable in such working conditions] whilst working alone a court would slaughter U
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For me, it looks like a case of job analysis first, then an RA. If jig, band saws, bench saws etc are being used then, for my money, I'd have someone on hand just in case. Failing that, can the work be put off until there are adequate staff about the place to help. Last time I looked it takes about 90 secs to black out with a severed artery (this does happen as managed to drill an rather neat 6mm hole in my left thigh making an engine plate for a Bonnie, missing an artery by 2 mm)
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Still think you lot are being unrealistic and OTT.
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I'm with Clairel on this one but it depends what resources you have available.
Having assessed our joiners workshop he spends most of his time on his own.
I considered requiring him to phone in but dismissed it as it would distract him and create more of a hinderance than help.
Eventually opted for man down radio (we already have a network set up so it's not a significant expense) but you need to ensure there is someone at the other end who will respond and also knows what the radio is for. Daft as it may seem if you have somebody who doesn't know what the radios for they either won't respond or will waste time.
You also need a good radio. if it goes off every time they bend down to pick a nail up you will quickly find that its sat monitoring the stability of a workshop bench.
All that said with modern machinery, guards in place, pushrods used and suitably trained and competant operators your risk of an accident is low.
John
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Many here have considered the severity of injury but apparently fewer are also looking at how likely there is to be such an injury, before making a judgement on the level of risk and what additional controls should be in place.
The woodworker/carpenter is more likely to be killed in a vehicle collision on their way home, or bleed to death waiting for emergency assistance to turn up at the roadside.
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David Bannister makes a good point, one I tried to make but less elloquently. Also, what exactly is being produced in the workshop by the Chippy, and how?
Is he manufacturing or modifying ladders by any chance?
(It is Friday)
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ExDeeps wrote:David Bannister makes a good point, one I tried to make but less elloquently. Also, what exactly is being produced in the workshop by the Chippy, and how?
Is he manufacturing or modifying ladders by any chance?
(It is Friday)
Just a rough guess and happy to be proven wrong. However; judging from some of Daisy's previous posts, I'd suggest oak furniture.
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Claire,
What is so unrealistic and OTT about doing a risk assessment - I 'd get a consultant in to check its done right too (just another post I was reading earlier!)
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tigers wrote:Claire,
What is so unrealistic and OTT about doing a risk assessment - I 'd get a consultant in to check its done right too (just another post I was reading earlier!)
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said doing a RA for was OTT. I said not letting anyone lone work was OTT.
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A quick search shows you can get a man down alarm for under £100. You also have an office only 500 yards away. So it seems simple, buy an alarm to be used when they are lone working, which will alert those in the showroom / office.
Alternatively some sort of cctv again feed back to the office and that way the showroom people can glance at it occasionally and can see if the carpenter is having a nap in the corner.
Phoning every half hour would be disruptive.
Shutting the workshop is not appropriate, unless the workshop manager had some other motive. ie not much work and if the carpenter is sent home he / she is not paid.
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Out of curiosity Daisy, what machinery is actually being used?
I agree that a "complete" ban on lone working in a joiners workshop on the basis that it is a "Joiners workshop" is commercial madness and until all the tasks and machinery to be used are known I wouldnt give a yes / no answer.
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garryw1509 wrote:Out of curiosity Daisy, what machinery is actually being used?
I agree that a "complete" ban on lone working in a joiners workshop on the basis that it is a "Joiners workshop" is commercial madness and until all the tasks and machinery to be used are known I wouldnt give a yes / no answer.
jig saw and band saw Garry
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nickh wrote:ExDeeps wrote:David Bannister makes a good point, one I tried to make but less elloquently. Also, what exactly is being produced in the workshop by the Chippy, and how?
Is he manufacturing or modifying ladders by any chance?
Hi Nick - yes is oak furniture but not manufacturing, repairing, fixing for sale in clearance showroom
(It is Friday)
Just a rough guess and happy to be proven wrong. However; judging from some of Daisy's previous posts, I'd suggest oak furniture.
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DaisyMaisy wrote:garryw1509 wrote:Out of curiosity Daisy, what machinery is actually being used?
I agree that a "complete" ban on lone working in a joiners workshop on the basis that it is a "Joiners workshop" is commercial madness and until all the tasks and machinery to be used are known I wouldnt give a yes / no answer.
jig saw and band saw Garry
Thanks Daisy; If its a narrow bandsaw I would be pretty cool about the lad working on his own to be honest, especially with the tasks you have mentioned; and as John says, with some controls in place I dont really see this a particularly high risk activity.
Good luck with the MD either way :-)
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Why not ask the 'lone worker' how they feel about it all? Do they feel safe?
Job analysis, RA, consult the workforce. Bring out your dead.
Work safe, stay safe.
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