How did the ice get on the platform?
Is it uncovered?
Obviously.
Solution?
Simple.
Cover a section of platform where the entrance is, so no snow, ice, rain can get to it and barrier that section off for use only.
Risk eliminated.

Apologies for my lack of clarity on this matter. I was looking to put up a canopy or a roof over a certain area as opposed to covering the floor area. Obviously it would depend on numbers using it, layout of platform etc but i feel something could be done to minimise the problem prior to gritting.

Frank - If raindrops and snowflakes always fell vertically, your suggestion at #41 might work. However, they don't - they tend to descend at an angle, especially if affected by wind or even a light breeze. Also, some ice on station platforms and similar surfaces stems from the freezing of moisture alias dew derived from condensation of moisture in air on cold surfaces. Air and surface temperatures and their position with respect to freezing point are critical factors as to whether ice will form or not. Even a thin veneer of ice on a platform or other walking surface can make it hazardous. However, credit to you for addressing the original topic and not introducing major deviations from it like some responders including myself have done!

Another factor to consider is that the companies responsible for stations probably wouldn't want to spend money on providing canopies for stations and then maintaining such structures. It seems that at many minor stations over the years the original canopies, and often buildings as well, have been removed and simply replaced by small semi-open shelters like those at some bus stops. Also such stations nowadays tend to be unmanned though most or all were probably staffed by two or more employees (probably plus one cat or dog!) at least until WW2 – employees who no doubt would have kept platforms gritted/salted as and when necessary.

In keeping with this topic, one possible measure to help minimise the frequency or degree of slips on wet or icy platforms might be to have textured surfaces with slightly raised pimples or knobbles. This might already be the case for some station platforms. Another possibility might be to have some form of electric under-surface heating system for the main part of a platform, preferably controlled automatically by a local thermostat. Such a system might not need a great deal of electrical power - just enough to keep the platform surface above freezing point. Can anyone with technical expertise or knowledge advise if such a system is feasible or even in use at any stations in the UK and/or abroad?

But back in those days, Bob the staffing levels in the railways were significantly greater than now. I can remember when the railways employed porters to help with your luggage. (ah Steam Locomotives!)

In that respect sfarp is a bit of a moving target.

Hi Jeni,

I use the ones with a coiled spring around the rubber strands. I've already bought pairs for all my family and given them to them already.

bob s - my earlier comment about underfloor heating systems for station platforms was that it might be a possibility. I don't know of any stations in the world which actually have such systems. The suggestion was inspired by my current (slight pun) pursuit of a DIY trace heating system for the external part of the condensate drain pipe from the condensing type central heating boiler installed at my house 2 years ago. (that's another "can of worms" which I'll refrain from expanding on except to comment that boiler producers and installers apparently gave little thought to problems arising from the freezing of trickles of condensate in external pipes. The same criticism could be levelled at parliament when it agreed to legislation which from 2005 required all new or replacement domestic gas boilers installed in the UK to be of the condensing type!)

There's common agreement that in the past almost all stations were staffed by employees who, among their duties, would be able to monitor conditions in winter and treat their station platforms accordingly. However, what did the employees actually use to treat the platforms with surfaces affected by ice or compacted snow? My guess is that they used grit, coarse sand and probably also cinders/ash readily available in quantity from the coal fires at stations. However, was salt available and in what form?

This topic is about dealing with slippery platform surfaces to make them non-slippery or at least significantly less slippery, not necessarily to melt ice and compacted hard snow. From what I've seen of stations in Norway it seems that Norwegian Railways staff only use grit to treat slippery areas of their platforms. They also have the advantage that during their winters they don't have to contend with rain and temperatures which fluctuate considerably above and below freezing point.

On a wider note, does anyone happen to know when crushed rock salt started to become commonly used for treating surfaces in the UK for vehicles and pedestrians, including roads and pavements? If not, some of us may well know some people in their 80s and 90s and could ask them what they can recall. Although this aspect might appear to be a digression from this forum topic, finding out how people coped/tried to cope in the past might just help with how to tackle problems with icy platforms at unmanned stations nowadays. (I can think of one possibility, but will keep it until later, not least to save this response from becoming too long!)

It's possible that the company/people responsible for maintaining the station platform used by SP was misled by the fact that this Autumn in most or all parts of the UK has been unusually warm and also remained warmer for notably longer than normal. Also, it's possible that reliance was placed on a weather forecast. By its nature meteorology is and never can be an exact science. Furthermore, even within a relatively small area, conditions including the presence or absence of frost can differ in places for various reasons. Another explanation might be that the platform in question was salted/gritted some time before the frosty morning and that an interim rain shower washed most of the salt/grit away.

I'm not trying to defend the company involved, just suggesting some aspects which might explain why the icy platform was untreated. At least the employee on the train did his best to tell/remind passengers (sorry "customers" nowadays in modern parlance) that the platforms at their destinations might be icy and therefore merit care by users to avoid slips and falls.

SP - if you use the same station regularly, have there been any more icy mornings and, if so, does it appear that any action has been taken to treat the platforms?

Simon

Thanks for your answer regarding my query yesterday.

As you say, having a platform surface which in part comprises smooth finished pre-cast concrete demonstrates little or no thought by the designer/specifier about safety in relation to foreseeable weather conditions. Therefore, I stick by an earlier suggestion that such surfaces should be suitably rugged/knobbly/rugose.

As for an employee visiting each unmanned station and treating icy surfaces if necessary among other duties, this system doesn't seem very reliable. If the usual employee is unwell or otherwise not available, the employer might not have a robust system for anyone else to do the work instead. Also, unless there are plenty of early morning trains and only a few unmanned stations, the logistics involved may well work against getting all the platforms at unmanned stations treated in reasonable time.

Though it may seem paradoxical to some, a prolonged period of sub-zero weather (without new falls of snow or wind to blow snow onto treated surfaces) probably makes platforms and other surfaces easier to keep safe. During such periods the air becomes drier (think of "freeze drying"), so there's less moisture in air to form fresh/additional ice on the surfaces if they're either reasonably dry or have been gritted/salted.

It's worth mentioning that salt is only effective as a de-icing agent down to a temperature of minus 18C. Fortunately, it seems that such low temperatures are quite rare or tend not to last for long in the UK. However, as engineers involved with outdoor structures such as road bridges know very well, the use of salt as a de-icer can cause considerable problems and costs because of its highly corrosive effect on steel, including steel reinforcing rods in concrete. (As corrosion is also a problem for vehicles driven on salted roads in winter, presumably vehicles in countries where salt isn't widely used are significantly less prone to corrosion. I'll try to remember to ask about this when I next go to Norway, hopefully early next year.)

Bob, it is interesting to read your comments regarding standards for new station platforms. I have previously been involved in station refurbs and the dimpled surface for those with impaired vision are called tack tiles. However, it is the design of new stations I would like to highlight. The recently built Stratford DLR station has a canopy which is pretty useless when driving rain or other precipitation falls as anyone who has visited the station will surely testify. I have not visited the station recently and presume the problems remain, including the pooling of water on the platform surface due to poor design/ drainage. I raised my concerns some while ago when working on the DLR but my comments fell upon deaf ears - so much for the advancement of design and technology.

Mods,

Please tell me I haven't breached anything by providing the previous link.

Simon

Just looked at the picture of the station and see it is prefabricated in construction so that is why there have been some repairs made due to frost or rust causing the surface to break up a bit. This station is very old say about 1940s very narrow and is supported by a frame base. These types of platform were used quite a bit in the war years as they could be built very quickly and cheaply. I notice on the picture the platform is only about six feet wide and at the end of the platform is a yellow salt bin which confirms to me the station is totally unmanned so would be covered by a mobile gang for cleaning etc. I feel this may be a request stop most of the time and can remember a similar place between Bath and Westbury on the Bathampton line.

As to the enforcing body it is The Office of Rail Regulation, unless of cause it has changed yet again, It was the Railway Inspectorate then the HSE then the ORR, it has changed with such regularity it has become a hard to catch thing.

Due to this post, off line chats I have had with posters and further research into industry (and risk of ice) - I feel I have slightly improved my existing gritting plans I have in place for the business - so thanks Simon for posting and some great feedback to what is such a difficult area to manage.

We will always disagree on this subject I fell nut I'll take any positives I can from the disagreements.

Thank you all.

The reason for only using one door is I suggest because the trains are too long for the platform. The length of the train is very important as enabling all doors to open risks them opening when not at the platform with the result people can fall some six feet especially in the dark. This has been the case for many years and can only be erradicated by building longer platforms. To do that would mean a new platform that complies with the modern standards, and costs about a quarter of a million each time. The original post was about ice on the platform and as I have already said is controlled by treating the platform using a cheap and reliable method and if the platform was of a modern standard the ice would still come every year until global warming arrives the I suppose it will be soft tarmac that will be the problem!

During the early stages of this thread I did think of suggesting some sort of metal mesh covering for platforms at unmanned stations but decided against it because such coverings are unlikely to be reasonably practicable in terms of cost and also vulnerability to vandalism, etc. Therefore, surely the best measure to protect people of all ages generally is to encourage them to wear ice gripper devices. Even if station platforms and other walking surfaces can be treated, people usually have to negotiate untreated surfacesbetween the treated ones. It's also part of the greater theme which recurs on this forum of people taking personal responsibility for themselves where appropriate.

Turning now to road gritting which developed as a sub-topic of this thread: With increasing pressures on local highway authorities to cut costs, it seems that the number of UK roads AND the frequency with which they are treated with rock salt each winter could well be reduced. Therefore, could there be some merit in highway authorities drastically abandoning the practice of gritting roads if owners of vehicles in the UK could be persuaded to use hybrid winter tyres of the sort mentioned earlier by Clairel? This suggestion may be 'pie in the sky' because I've no idea of the relative costs of gritting versus hybrid winter tyres. However, it might make some sense if the costs of icy road accidents to individuals, insurers, the NHS, the government, etcetera, plus the costs of disruption caused by icy roads can be taken into account. There might even be a case for vehicle owners to receive financial support for buying and fitting hybrid winter tyres.

If such a scheme could be calculated as both practicable and financially viable it would be mean that vehicles would be better able to negotiate all icy UK roads in winter rather than continue with the present system by which selected roads are gritted and the rest are left for vehicles and motorists to negotiate as best they can. Also, the use of far less salt on roads in the UK would help to reduce corrosion of vehicles, structures such as bridges and also be better for the environment, e.g. less salt being washed into rivers and other watercourses.

In fact, why not also encourage pedestrians to wear footwear and/or ice gripper devices intended to cope with surfaces beset by ice or hard compacted snow? Also, if it can be proved that such a system would be likely to achieve major savings through reducing the costs of falls, e.g. to the NHS through dealing with fall-related fractures each winter, perhaps it should be reinforced by means of government publicity and a subsidy for gripper devices.

In an earlier response to this thread I mentioned a clue about precautions in the past. It seems from various old photos and written information that people of all ages tended to have some footwear with hobnails or similar metal studs nailed into their soles and heels. In addition to extending the longevity of such footwear, it's conceivable that hobnails gave better grip on icy surfaces. If any forum users have relatives or friends who are in their 80s and 90s, please could you ask them about studded footwear and other measures used in the past to try and cope with icy surfaces? If you get any useful/interesting responses, please then share them with the rest of us.

My response at #67 yesterday was getting lengthy, so I withheld until now some comments which would have followed the ones about hobnailed footwear. Until about WW2 it seems that boots for mountain walking and climbing, and probably also work activities over rugged terrain, had pronounced hobnails known as clinkers or tricounis. These apparently gave good grip or 'bite' on ice and hard snow, as well as smooth rock and slippery grass, etc.

During Christmas last year in the Lake District I discovered that there is a modern equivalent of tricounis known as microspikes. These comprise a pattern of stainless steel downward-pointing triangular teeth which can be fitted under an outdoor boot and are held firmly in place by a stretchy durable rubber mesh which fits over the boot uppers. Unlike permanently fitted tricounis, microspikes have the great advantage that they can be easily fitted and removed as and when necessary. Friends who were wearing microspikes last Christmas were able to walk with impunity across the large smooth sheets of ice-covered ground which required great care by walkers wearing boots with ordinary rubber vibram soles.

Microspikes can be described as a useful hybrid between boots with patterned rubber soles and boots worn with conventional crampons which tend to be awkward and uncomfortable to wear except on terrain covered by at least 2 inches or so of reasonably hard snow. My wife and I bought a pair each when we next visited a mountaineering shop after last Christmas. Sadly we didn't encounter any further conditions which merited their use last Winter, so we're hoping for some appropriate conditions this winter.

Although the above information is mostly intended for forum users who enjoy outdoor activities and might not yet know about the devices, it also has OS&H relevance as regards the safety of people whose work involves negotiating wild terrain which is or might be covered by ice and hard snow.

I agree with those suggesting the station operators should have tackled this issue (and, perhaps they did).

Tackling the issue doesn't mean that there will never be frozen ice on the ground (no prevention / clearance is 100% effective), or that inclement weather may not arrive in between clearance actions, but a plan of some sort should be in place. I could understand small unmanned stations receiving little (or even no) attention if the winter conditions region-wide meant that staff had to be diverted to higher-risk activities, but this winter's nothing like last year so far.

If you invite the general public onto your premises you have to consider these risks and have some sort of reasonable control in place. The number / area of platforms doesn't really come into it (in my opinion only!) - you've the same duties if you manage 1 station as if you manage 1,000.

Not wishing to pour cold water onto this but you may get a frosty reception from those who think that you are skating on thin ice and that thawing out this thread is a slip up.

I was wondering who breathed life into this topic and I might have guessed...nice one Graham, just when I thought the forum was getting boring.

Graham, thanks for igniting an old topic of mine. As for the 'spiked boots' more likely to get the 'waders' out...

Ray....show off, show off pick your nose and .....!