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I have a fleet of minibuses which predominantly are driven by professional drivers. On occasions other members of staff use a minibus on company business but outside their normal working hours.
A lot of my staff have signed the 48 hour waiver under the EU Working Time Directive as part of their working week. Some work as much as 64 hours (Monday 8.00am through to 1.00pm on Saturdays).
How do I reconcile a member of staff who has worked 64 hours Monday to Saturday and then has to drive (there and back in 12 hours) to another site which will mean working an additional 12 hours.
I am particularly concerned with the driving part of this extra 12 hours seeing as the driving will take up about 6 or the 12 hours.
I have other instances during the week which may involve driving at the end of the normal working day for upto 3 hours.
Rich
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Rich
I think you need to have another look at Work Time directive
IIRC the opt outs don't allow for what you are doing perpetually.
Even if its OK regards WTD, you would cetainly be investigated by the police following an RTA if they are working those sort of hours - behind the wheel or not.
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Rank: Super forum user
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If somebody is 'at work' they are 'at work' irrespective of what could be called 'normal hours' and such situations need adequate management ------ listen to 'Walker'
The waver does not mean a thing in 'real' life -try using a waver as an excuse to a judge if one of your staff fell asleep at the wheel and killed somebody or fell asleep whilst working on a woodworking saw!
Reconcile: Do you mean that somebody who probably needs the money cannot now do overtime and may blame H&S where in fact its poor management practice that lets them/makes them work long hours! Or that they are not paid a going rate so they have to do overtime to survive
Long hours: I used to work very long hours so I was not against such practices but we were greedy and uncivilised in those days
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Rank: Forum user 
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As an ex HGV driver...
Following the drivers hours rules, either UK or EEC is the best practice. I appreciate you don't have tachos fitted, but as Walker says, working / driving that number of hours is just dangerous.
I'm terrified at the prospect of you asking drivers to work (regardless of driving hours) then drive another 12 on top of that?
Look at it another way...
you ask a driver to work 64 hours, of which he perhaps drove for 50, and then he crashes, while driving another 12 hours...
He hits a car, shunts it off the road, kills the other driver.
The HSE and Police investigate and he tells them he drove 50 hours and was TOLD by his boss to do another 12. He fell asleep or was so tired he couldn't judge speed and distances.
But he was TOLD by his boss to drive those extra hours....
You see where we are going with this...?
Stuff the WTD and how to 'reconcile' his hours and wages.
Employ more drivers and do some Risk Assessing before one of your buses ends up killing someone!
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Rich, I am having trouble 'visualising' the scenario from your original post. You seem to be suggesting that someone would work 64 hours between the hours of 8 on a Monday through to 13.00 on Saturday, and thereafter a further 12 hours i.e. 76 in total.
As others have observed.
1. A '48' waiver is 'acceptable' but it is NOT a get out of jail free card for excessive hours and/or lack of breaks
2. Certain 'exceptions' cannot be applied as a matter of routine
3. Work is just that; work, whether it is during 'normal' hours or not i.e. it all counts for the purposes of the WTR
Could I suggest you have a look at the Produce Connection case?
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From what you have described, it is not the WTD that you should be referring to, but the GB domestic rules, as contained in the Transport Act 1968.
And from what you have described you are probably breaking it ! (and probably not the only one)
In summary :-
Goods vehicles and passenger-carrying vehicles :-
Daily driving limit
You must not drive for more than 10 hours in a day. The daily driving limit applies to time spent at the wheel actually driving on a public road. Off-road driving counts as duty time.
Duty time
If you work as a driver for a company, duty time is any working time. If you’re self-employed, duty time is only time you spend driving the vehicle or doing other work related to the vehicle or its load.
Daily duty limit
You must not be on duty for more than 11 hours in any working day. This limit doesn’t apply on any working day when you don’t drive.
You must record your hours on a weekly record sheet or on a tachograph.
Passenger-carrying vehicles only :-
Breaks and continuous driving
After 5.5 hours of driving you must take a break of at least 30 minutes when you must be able to rest and take refreshment.
Or, within any period of 8.5 hours, you must take at least 45 minutes in breaks. You must have a break of at least 30 minutes at the end of this period, unless it’s the end of the working day.
Length of working day (‘spreadover’)
You must not work more than 16 hours in any one day - including non driving work and any times when you’re off duty.
Daily rest periods
You must take a rest of 10 hours between 2 working days. This can be reduced to 8.5 hours up to 3 times a week.
Fortnightly rest periods
Every 2 weeks you must take at least one period of 24 hours off duty.
A fixed week is from 00:00am on Monday to 23:59pm on the next Sunday.
Exemptions
The GB Domestic rules don’t apply if:
you don’t drive on the public road, eg if you drive as part of work in road maintenance, quarrying, construction work, civil engineering works
you drive for less than 4 hours in any day
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Rank: Guest
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Thanks for all the comments so far. Looking back at my OP I agree it is confusing.
The people doing the driving after working up to 64 hours a week are not drivers. They are ordinary staff, doing in the main, office type work but have to, on occasions, drive minibuses with passengers to other sites. There daily working hours are 5 days x 12 hours and then Saturdays another 4 hours totalling 64 hours. This is of course upto 64 hours.
The scenario I was trying to describe is an office type worker coming into work on a Saturday and having to work another 12 hour day driving passengers in a minibus to another site and back (they have not driven during the week) and they do stop for comfort breaks.
This is where I am getting confused trying to reconcile the WTD and the Driving law.
Rich
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A consistant 64 hour working week? Wow! That is some serious hours each week if that is the case.
I do not think that driving is your only issue
I would be concerned with amonst many other issues work related stress and fatigue
Peter
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Rank: Super forum user
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64 hours and then another 12 ?
Worse, 64 hours work and then another 12 driving people around.
Stress and fatigue are not your main problem....an accident leading to a death would mean someone looking at spending time in a room with a locked door and barred window. Probably more than 64 hours worth.
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Rank: Super forum user
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rich wrote, Quote:There daily working hours are 5 days x 12 hours and then Saturdays another 4 hours totalling 64 hours...... coming into work on a Saturday and having to work another 12 hour day driving passengers in a minibus to another site and back...... Rich, if you sit down and do a risk assessment you will find yourself asking, on Saturday are these staff FIT to drive? How can you be sure they are fit to drive? After an accident how will you persuade a policeman, lawyer, a judge, families of injured passengers, that your driver was fit to drive for 12 hours on the Saturday?
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Rank: Super forum user
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should say...... 6 hours on the Saturday.
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Rank: Forum user
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quote=rich777]
The people doing the driving after working up to 64 hours a week are not drivers. They are ordinary staff, doing in the main, office type work but have to, on occasions, drive minibuses with passengers to other sites.
The scenario I was trying to describe is an office type worker coming into work on a Saturday and having to work another 12 hour day driving passengers in a minibus to another site and back (they have not driven during the week) and they do stop for comfort breaks.
This is where I am getting confused trying to reconcile the WTD and the Driving law.
Rich rich777, under the GB domestic rules, they are drivers, as they drive for more than 4 hours on that one day. They are also breaking the duty limit of 11 hours if they are working for 12 hours on the days they drive and they must not drive for more than 10 hours on the day they drive. In my original post I said you were probably breaking the GB domestic rules, as contained in the Transport Act 1968. However, what you have now confirmed is that you are breaking it ! Please take on board this comment and those above and put an immediate stop to the unsafe working practices, which are also breaking the law !
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Rank: Guest
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jfw - thanks for the advice - I have escalated this problem to the powers that be (the bosses) - hopefully something will be done, but I won't hold my breath - why?
It would mean employing loads more people and the costs would be prohibited. What needs to be done is a review of all working practices including a Time and Motion study.
Thanks to all who posted
Rich
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Rank: Super forum user 
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There has been at least one succesful prosecution in circumstances which are very close to the ones you described, read this http://www.uk-roadsafety.../Fleet/company_fined.htmThe driver in this case was not in any sense on work business, he was driving home, but the case rested on the fact that he had been working very long hours. your situation sounds even more risky for your employer, let alone for the workers and the other drivers, pedestrians, cyclist and hore-riders they might encounter, John
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Rank: Super forum user
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In this case both employer and employee had better hope there is not a fatal accident attributable to dangerous driving/fatigue.
The driver would be looking at being absent for several years.
Hopefully there is not a single management presence responsible for transport..
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