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CDM question. Should a lifting plan be included in the Health & Safety file
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Won Hung Lo  
#1 Posted : 06 December 2012 15:27:47(UTC)
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Won Hung Lo
Hi, straight forward question, should the crane lifting plan be included in the Principal Contractors Health & Safety file to comply with the CDM regulations? The lifting operations are quite complex as it is a wind turbine that is being erected. Any help on the subject matter would be appreciated
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freelance safety  
#2 Posted : 06 December 2012 15:34:19(UTC)
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freelance safety
Hi, the safe systems for lifting should be within the plan, this should detail all elements of lifting design and engineering aspects for each of the duty holders, contact details, plans and arrangements for emergencies. A comprehensive safe work methodology should be in place together with suitable and sufficient risk assessments for the lifting operations which should also provide a detailed lifting plan (re: BS7121). PM me if you need any help or advice. Regards FS
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DNW  
#3 Posted : 06 December 2012 15:47:26(UTC)
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DNW
Won Hung Lo ??????? Catch up mods
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freelance safety  
#4 Posted : 06 December 2012 15:49:52(UTC)
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freelance safety
A great name...!
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JohnW  
#5 Posted : 06 December 2012 16:43:44(UTC)
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JohnW
Won Hung Lo wrote:
Hi, straight forward question, should the crane lifting plan be included in the Principal Contractors Health & Safety file to comply with the CDM regulations?
H&S file? The H&S file is what is handed to the new site owner on completion of project, he doesn't need to know what crane you used. Don't you mean the Pre-construction Plan?
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freelance safety  
#6 Posted : 06 December 2012 17:27:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
freelance safety
I assumed we were looking at the construction phase plan, but re-reading the post I may be wrong??????
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boblewis  
#7 Posted : 06 December 2012 18:12:40(UTC)
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boblewis
Unfortunately many still confuse the two and little can be expected to change as many who should know better and still do it. Bob
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freelance safety  
#8 Posted : 06 December 2012 18:46:40(UTC)
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freelance safety
My only issue is the need for new spectacles.... lol. Must go, red wine awaits....!
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SP900308  
#9 Posted : 06 December 2012 18:56:24(UTC)
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SP900308
Nothing wrong with including a lift plan as guidance if the lift was complex, unusual difficult to manage etc. All useful reference when it's time to bring the thing back down to earth!
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boblewis  
#10 Posted : 07 December 2012 13:31:35(UTC)
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boblewis
Sp900308 Except the crane used will not be available and thus the whole plan is irrelevant. Weight, fixing and centre of balance are all ythat are required. None of this can be in the PCs H&S File as he should not have one. So Yes - Lifting Plan in CPP No - Lifting Plan in H&S File Yes - Some information in H&S File Bob
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RayRapp  
#11 Posted : 08 December 2012 12:50:46(UTC)
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RayRapp
It is the Client via the CDM-C who decides what goes into the h&S file, not the PC or anyone else. Therefore if it is relevant for the lift plan to be added to the h&s file due to the complexity of the lift, for example, then so be it. Otherwise I would say it may be more relevant to the CPP, which once again, could form part of the h&s file if the CDM-C chooses. In the example provide at #1 I would say yes, it should be included in the h&s file.
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boblewis  
#12 Posted : 08 December 2012 17:36:15(UTC)
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boblewis
Ray Many a CDMC tried that on me - none succeeded. Unless you can ensure exactly the same crane being available in 20 years time, or whatever, the Lift Plan in the file is totally irrelevant. Exttracted information maybe but not the plan. Most clients never specify the H&S file contents until after contract award so it is a good opportunity for vaste extra monies Bob:-) Loadsa dosh loss awaits all who dare.
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RayRapp  
#13 Posted : 08 December 2012 19:40:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp
Bob I guess it depends on the type of client. I was thinking of a corporate client who by and large want everything in the h&s file in my experience, including method statements. Yes, the crane could be obsolete in 20 years or so time, but the calcs or whatever may still be relevant. As I said, only if it is an exceptionally complex lift would I see a necessity for the lift plan to be included in the h&s file. However, if the client don't ask, then they don't get is the rule.
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boblewis  
#14 Posted : 08 December 2012 21:51:46(UTC)
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boblewis
Generally the bigger the client the more dosh they have to pay for the additional information. Economics rule OK:-) Bob
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boblewis  
#15 Posted : 08 December 2012 21:54:54(UTC)
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boblewis
Should also said of course that raely are two cranes even of the same model exactly the same - it needs the machine that did the lift on the day as it was rigged on the day. Still take the money even if the information is U/S Bob
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DEC1888  
#16 Posted : 09 December 2012 18:15:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DEC1888
Perhaps any special considerations that were unearthed during the compilation of the lift plan, should be included in the H&S file such as geotech survey results, location of underground services/ pipes etc, type of crane platform that was installed for initial lift and reasons for doing so, you can always use more information IMO
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smith6720  
#17 Posted : 09 December 2012 19:12:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
smith6720
There still seems to be confusion on the original post, if the poster is sure that he wants to know if lift plan should be included in the h&s file? In my opinion and it probably runs along the same thoughts as boblewis > CHSP would identify lifting as a risk so lifting would be included as such, but at this stage how would the PC know what crane he would use, he probably would not even know what company he will be using. At the end of the project if the client asks for this to be included in the health and safety file then so be it, but for what reason ??
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garryw1509  
#18 Posted : 09 December 2012 19:20:13(UTC)
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garryw1509
No...................The lifting plan is just a system of work.
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garryw1509  
#19 Posted : 09 December 2012 19:22:35(UTC)
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garryw1509
As an aside...love the name.....
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smith6720  
#20 Posted : 09 December 2012 19:48:10(UTC)
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smith6720
Apoligies > dont know if previous post (17) is clear, lifting is a high risk and would be recorded in the CHSP as such. Lift plan would not form part of health and safety file, unless client request for all safety documentation to be included in health and safety file, method statements, lift plans etc etc. which some do ask for.
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boblewis  
#21 Posted : 09 December 2012 22:12:39(UTC)
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boblewis
But as I say do make them pay handsomley for it unless contained in the tender Bob
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SP900308  
#22 Posted : 10 December 2012 08:56:36(UTC)
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SP900308
Certainly won't argue with you Bob. Obviously there will be relevant information available for the safe de-construction of such a superstructure, this info must go into the File but not necessarily in the format of a lift plan (although as you said, if the client wants it this way, the client gets...)! As for 'two cranes never being the same', I'll take your word for that! I'll tell you one thing: two CDM-Cs will never be the same! two Clients will never be the same! two projects will never be the same!
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