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John Cook  
#1 Posted : 14 December 2012 10:50:51(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
John Cook

Looking for some advice regarding driving a minibus at work (pre 1 January 1997 licence). The minibus is used to transport employees and others from one site to another with a trailer being used on occasion as part of the business needs. No charge is made for this so no "hire or reward" "The Gov.UK website states that providing it is not for hire or reward ie there’s no payment from or on behalf of the passengers." However, others have contacted the DVLA and they have been told, on that as the driver is being paid then this constitutes "Hire and reward" and a PCV licnce is required. This obviously in direct contradiction of their own posted information and there is no statement to restrict this to non-paid company drivers. Does anyone have any other information that I could use to pursue this or do their drivers of minibuses possess a PCV licence?
Safety Smurf  
#2 Posted : 14 December 2012 11:00:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

Hi John, You're not the first one to come across this confusion. I had it in my workplace a couple years back. The websites information is written, published, printable as evidence and quotable. What 'other people' said the DVLA 'told' them is worth no more than hearsay. It's because of this confusion that the information was published in the first place. Hope this helps.
chas  
#3 Posted : 14 December 2012 11:28:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chas

My understanding is that it is not for the company to show that is not getting payment in cash or in kind. It is for the license holder to show they are not getting rewarded for driving. So if the member of staff is driving on voluntary basis they may be OK but if they are being paid and it is in their job description or contract of employment then they may well be deemed to be getting rewarded for the driving. In which case they should have an appropriate PCV license. The issue may also be clouded by the fact you use trailers. There may be exemptions and the written guidance can be confusing however that is my understanding. The following documents may be of interest in your quest to find the answer that is right for your circumstances, (assuming you have not already read them)...... DVLA document INF30 regarding driving with trailers. DVLA document INF28 regarding driving a minibus.
jwk  
#4 Posted : 14 December 2012 11:51:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

I'm with CHAS on this one; if you are getting paid it is for hire and reward. We operate a number of minibuses, and that's how we proceed, however, though we technically to have to insist on PCV we get a derogation as a voluntary sector organisation, so we don't actually have to, John
Safety Smurf  
#5 Posted : 14 December 2012 12:20:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

The website actually qualifies what 'hire and reward' is; If the minibus is not for ‘hire or reward’ You may be able to drive a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats using your current car driving licence as long as it’s not for ‘hire or reward’ - ie there’s no payment from or on behalf of the passengers. If you are transporting collegues your are not receiving payment from or on behalf of the passengers. https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus If someone has evidence to the contrary would they please site their source.
jwk  
#6 Posted : 14 December 2012 12:36:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Hi SafetySmurf, My sources are a number of publications from DoT and Dept of Communities about driving minibuses for Charities. Though they are very specific, they do give a full legal background (can't remember their names, It's years since I last searched through them and they're in a box in the garage). Hire or Reward doesn't necessarily involve payment as such; that would be Direct Hire or Reward. There is such a thing as Indirect Hire or Reward. This exists where payment may be bundled into an overall charge for other services. If a hotel arranges a 'free' transfer shuttle, that would be Indirect Hire or Reward; taking service users out in a Home's minibus is Indirect Hire or Reward, as the bus is paid for by bening bundled up in the fee for the Home, John
chas  
#7 Posted : 14 December 2012 13:13:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chas

If the driver is being paid to drive (ie it is in their JD etc) then it could be interpreted by a court that they are being rewarded by the company on behalf of the passengers whoever they are, (as far as I am aware it has not been tested in court - yet). As I said previously my understanding is that it is down to the driver to show they are not being rewarded in any way because it is a condition of their license. The company not being paid by the passengers has little to do with the outcome. However under road traffic legislation if the company knows its staff are driving illegally or outside the remit of their license then it can also fall foul of the law. That is my understanding of the general situation. There are exemptions eg for volunteers and charities etc. I may be wrong but would need convincing.
Andrew Bober  
#8 Posted : 16 December 2012 14:19:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Andrew Bober

Safety Smurf wrote:
The website actually qualifies what 'hire and reward' is; If the minibus is not for ‘hire or reward’ You may be able to drive a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats using your current car driving licence as long as it’s not for ‘hire or reward’ - ie there’s no payment from or on behalf of the passengers. If you are transporting collegues your are not receiving payment from or on behalf of the passengers. https://www.gov.uk/driving-a-minibus If someone has evidence to the contrary would they please site their source.
The following is what the how ‘hire and reward’ is legally defined. The Law says: 5) For the purposes of this section and Schedule 1 to this Act – (a) a vehicle is to be treated as carrying passengers for hire or reward if payment is made for, or for matters which include, the carrying of passengers, irrespective of the person to whom the payment is made and, in the case of a transaction effected by or on behalf of a member of any association of persons (whether incorporated or not) on the one hand and the association or another member thereof on the other hand, notwithstanding any rule of law as to such transactions; (b) a payment made for the carrying of a passenger shall be treated as a fare notwithstanding that it is made in consideration of other matters in addition to the journey and irrespective of the person by or to whom it is made; (c) a payment shall be treated as made for the carrying of a passenger if made in consideration of a person’s being given a right to be carried, whether for one or more journeys and whether or not the right is exercised. Source: Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981
Andrew Bober  
#9 Posted : 16 December 2012 14:22:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Andrew Bober

chas wrote:
If the driver is being paid to drive (ie it is in their JD etc) then it could be interpreted by a court that they are being rewarded by the company on behalf of the passengers whoever they are, (as far as I am aware it has not been tested in court - yet). As I said previously my understanding is that it is down to the driver to show they are not being rewarded in any way because it is a condition of their license. The company not being paid by the passengers has little to do with the outcome. However under road traffic legislation if the company knows its staff are driving illegally or outside the remit of their license then it can also fall foul of the law. That is my understanding of the general situation. There are exemptions eg for volunteers and charities etc. I may be wrong but would need convincing.
DCSF(1) (as DfES, 2006) published an amendment to paragraph 134 of Chapter 6 “Planning Transport” in Health and Safety of Pupils on Educational Visits (HASPEV, DfES 1998, supplemented 2002). 12. Paragraph 6 further explains that: “The exemption does not apply where a driver’s employment contract expressly states that driving a PCV vehicle is part of the job. Employers of, for example, support staff hired as drivers, or of instructors at outdoor education centres, should check the contracts of these categories of staff carefully before concluding whether or not a D1 PCV licence is required. Employers of part-time teachers working extra hours and being paid additionally for driving a PCV should also check their contract(s) to establish whether a D1 PCV qualification is needed”. As this is only guidance rather than statutory (which it is although it sets out a very clear government position) some local authority lawyers have determined that the D1 addition should be a requirement until a definitive interpretation is provided by the courts. The question is, will such a prosecution ever come before the courts? Do you in fact want to become the test legal case. If the employee has within their JD the requirement to drive a minibus then it will be explicated interpreted as 'hire and reward'.
Andrew Bober  
#10 Posted : 16 December 2012 14:24:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Andrew Bober

Whether a D1 addition is required or not is a temporary issue in that the flexibility about not having a D1licence to drive a minibus under S19 conditions applies only to minibuses up to 3.5 tonnes. New minibuses generally weigh more than this so in the next "few" years as school minibuses are replaced the requirement for a D1 addition will become mandatory anyway. To understanding the definitions of weight class the following is provided: Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM), a.k.a. Gross Vehicle Weight. This is stamped on a plate in the vehicle and is published in the vehicle’s manual/handbook. It is the total allowable when the vehicle is fully laden and must never be exceeded GVW the max weight the vehicle can weigh when fully loaded GTW the max weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights This is also known as gross vehicle weight (GVW) or permissible maximum weight. The MAM of the towing vehicle and the MAM of the trailer cannot exceed the GTW of the towing vehicle (been working on this issue for about 9mths now). B
John Cook  
#11 Posted : 16 December 2012 21:33:20(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
John Cook

Thanks for all the replies and information, however it is still as clear as mud at the moment. I have read both inf 28 and 30 and I am still of the opinion that a pre January 1997 licence would entitle the holder to drive the minibus without a PCV, they have less than 16 seats and there is definitely no payment from passengers (in any form) whenever the bus is used. The job descriptions of the drivers do not include driving as a part of their duties, they are all essentially volunteers. We are a public body and on occasions we need to be able to move staff and others around the country at short notice and also to drive staff and equipment to training. Towing a trailer is a rare occurrence and would normally only happen in an emergency situation. If we need to move our "clients" this is normally a contracted out service with us only stepping in when the circumstances necessitate. I am led to believe that discussions with individuals at the DVLA are indicating that a PCV licence would be required but I am unsure as to the level the discussions are taking place.
Andrew Bober  
#12 Posted : 17 December 2012 12:39:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Andrew Bober

John Cook wrote:
Thanks for all the replies and information, however it is still as clear as mud at the moment. I have read both inf 28 and 30 and I am still of the opinion that a pre January 1997 licence would entitle the holder to drive the minibus without a PCV, they have less than 16 seats and there is definitely no payment from passengers (in any form) whenever the bus is used. The job descriptions of the drivers do not include driving as a part of their duties, they are all essentially volunteers. We are a public body and on occasions we need to be able to move staff and others around the country at short notice and also to drive staff and equipment to training. Towing a trailer is a rare occurrence and would normally only happen in an emergency situation. If we need to move our "clients" this is normally a contracted out service with us only stepping in when the circumstances necessitate. I am led to believe that discussions with individuals at the DVLA are indicating that a PCV licence would be required but I am unsure as to the level the discussions are taking place.
The vehciles MAM must be under 3.5kg though.
Andrew Bober  
#13 Posted : 17 December 2012 12:41:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Andrew Bober

John Cook wrote:
Thanks for all the replies and information, however it is still as clear as mud at the moment. I have read both inf 28 and 30 and I am still of the opinion that a pre January 1997 licence would entitle the holder to drive the minibus without a PCV, they have less than 16 seats and there is definitely no payment from passengers (in any form) whenever the bus is used. The job descriptions of the drivers do not include driving as a part of their duties, they are all essentially volunteers. We are a public body and on occasions we need to be able to move staff and others around the country at short notice and also to drive staff and equipment to training. Towing a trailer is a rare occurrence and would normally only happen in an emergency situation. If we need to move our "clients" this is normally a contracted out service with us only stepping in when the circumstances necessitate. I am led to believe that discussions with individuals at the DVLA are indicating that a PCV licence would be required but I am unsure as to the level the discussions are taking place.
John Also. If the staff concerned have "driven" including within their Job Description then there salary is defined as hire and reward, so they'll need the D1 addition (not the D1 under grandfather rights). B
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