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safetyamateur  
#1 Posted : 14 December 2012 14:27:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
safetyamateur

OK, I've never been too clever when it comes to COSHH and data sheets. But here's the current MSDS for our stuff. http://www.boconline.co....liquid-v1.3410_39604.pdf I'm mildly surprised that the burns property isn't classified as corrosive and the asphyxiant property isn't classified as toxic. Basically, it's not classified as hazardous which tells me that COSHH doesn't apply. Is that a fair assumption? (Appreciate risks still need to be assessed and controlled etc. but not under COSHH). Cheers
PH2  
#2 Posted : 14 December 2012 14:47:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PH2

It is classified as a hazard (potential cryogenic burn and injury); Classification acc. to Regulation (EC) No 1272/2008/EC(CLP/GHS). This is the most up to date Classification based on the 2008 Directive. Under the Heading of hazards they state: - Hazard Statements H281 Contains refrigerated gas; may cause cryogenic burns or injury. EIGA-As Asphyxiant in high concentrations. The issue has bee confused because they have also quoted the previous directive which would not have classified it as a hazard (Classification acc. to Directive 67/548/EEC & 1999/45/EC)
leadbelly  
#3 Posted : 14 December 2012 14:48:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
leadbelly

You're right, COSHH does not apply to LN2. An asphyxiant is not toxic and cold 'burns' are not corrosion. LB
bilbo  
#4 Posted : 14 December 2012 14:50:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bilbo

Just 'cos it is classified as toxic or corrosive etc - doesn't mean that COSHH does not apply. I have in the past been challenged for COSHH risk assessments for sputem, faeces, "grey" water, sewage and so on. If it is a substance with the potential to be hazardous to health then the principles of COSHH apply. HTH
bilbo  
#5 Posted : 14 December 2012 14:52:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bilbo

Read before you hit post!! - Sorry should read "Just cos' it isn't"!
David Bannister  
#6 Posted : 14 December 2012 15:03:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Liquid nitrogen "because of its chemical or toxicological properties and the way it is used or is present at the workplace creates a risk to health" Thus COSHH applies and you are therefore obliged to assess the risks arising from its presence etc. Th edata sheet gives you a reasonable start and you now need to figure out how people may be exposed, to how much and how likely etc and decide whether existing controls are adequate...
Ron Hunter  
#7 Posted : 14 December 2012 15:05:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

I just happened to have the L5 AcoP open when reading your post. My initial thoughts were with leadbelly, but COSHH did change and does apply. Please note: Asphyxiants 19 The revised text introduced into sub-paragraph (e) of the definition of a 'substance hazardous to health' brings within the scope of COSHH those gases and vapours which, when present at high concentrations in air at the workplace, act as simple asphyxiants. These can reduce the oxygen content to such an extent that life cannot be supported. Many of these asphyxiant gases are odourless and colourless and not readily detectable. Therefore, monitoring the oxygen content of the air is a means of ensuring that their presence does not pose a risk to the health of employees.
safetyamateur  
#8 Posted : 14 December 2012 15:05:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
safetyamateur

Thanks. Then I'm OK with the fact that we do the usual COSHH process but don't necessarily bill it as a COSHH risk assessment.
safetyamateur  
#9 Posted : 14 December 2012 15:07:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
safetyamateur

Doh! *reaches for copy of Regs*
PH2  
#10 Posted : 14 December 2012 15:11:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PH2

David Bannister correctly quoted Regulation 2(e), therefore it should be covered by a COSHH Risk Assessment. PH2
A Kurdziel  
#11 Posted : 14 December 2012 15:22:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The reason why it’s not included under COSHH is that the hazard does not come from its chemical properties nor it’s biological properties but from it’s physical properties. So COSHH does not apply to liquid nitrogen since none of the definitions of a hazardous substance Reg 2 apply to it BUT you still have a duty under H&S law to manage it as it can be described as a hazard under the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations, so you need to do a risk assessment. What I do is I use the standard COSHH assessment forms and remove the bit where it says COSHH.
safetyamateur  
#12 Posted : 14 December 2012 15:23:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
safetyamateur

Thanks again.
HSSnail  
#13 Posted : 14 December 2012 15:44:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Very hazardous to your health if you drink it as the recent news item clearly show. Liquid Nitrogen obviously has some real hazards but perhaps they are classified as a Safety Hazard rather than a health hazard. Your going to risk assess its use and have some safe systems of work - the data sheet gives some examples of what they may need to be - so does it really matter if its covered by coshh or not? This reminds me of the argument about defibrillators being covered by PUWER does it really matter as long as we assess the hazards and control the risks?
A Kurdziel  
#14 Posted : 14 December 2012 15:49:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Brian Hagyard wrote:
Very hazardous to your health if you drink it as the recent news item clearly show. Liquid Nitrogen obviously has some real hazards but perhaps they are classified as a Safety Hazard rather than a health hazard. Your going to risk assess its use and have some safe systems of work - the data sheet gives some examples of what they may need to be - so does it really matter if its covered by coshh or not? This reminds me of the argument about defibrillators being covered by PUWER does it really matter as long as we assess the hazards and control the risks?
Or a Dangerous Occurrence under RIDDOR or a Dangerous Occurrence under the law of common sense See the recent post
David Bannister  
#15 Posted : 14 December 2012 17:23:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

AK, COSHH does apply for the reason I quoted but BH is correct - the risks from exposure still need to be controlled regardless of what specific Regs may apply.
johnld  
#16 Posted : 14 December 2012 21:06:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnld

The potential of asphyxiation risk due to boiling off of liquid nitrogen is one that is taken very seriously in the HE and research sectors. There was a fatality in Scotland some years ago when an employee in a research establishment died due to asphyxiation. My own experience in the sector is that the risk of cryogenic burns are well known and the risk is well managed. I might add that other cryogenic liquids are of equal concern.
safetyamateur  
#17 Posted : 17 December 2012 09:17:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
safetyamateur

Brian Hagyard wrote:
so does it really matter if its covered by coshh or not? This reminds me of the argument about defibrillators being covered by PUWER does it really matter as long as we assess the hazards and control the risks?
Fair question, Brian. We've got a specific form for COSHH risk assessments which differs from our standard form. It features the 'current' hazard symbols and assessors simply delete those that not appropriate. The question from the shopfloor was basic on the face of it: "which form do we use, none of these symbols apply?" I've told them to treat it as a COSHH risk assessment.
HSSnail  
#18 Posted : 17 December 2012 09:33:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

For me a true COSHH assessment is (usually) about long term exposure to help detail the HEALTH risks and controls. Liquid Nitrogen I think would suit a more standard style assessment (HSE 5 steps or your own personal preference) as the hazards are more immediate.
A Kurdziel  
#19 Posted : 17 December 2012 10:17:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

As has been said it does not matter whether COSHH applies or not. What does matter that you identify all of the hazards associated with this material. These include: 1. Its very cold... and it will also make anything in contact with it very cold such pipework, and objects that have been immersed in it. If you are wearing gloves make sure that they are the correct ions, not gauntlet types, as the liquid can run inside them. You should use ones with elasticated cuffs. 2. The gas expands rapidly on warming to room temperature. It can explode if kept in a container with no suitable relief valve. Note that if the relief valve goes it can produce a very loud whistle, so in some circumstances the Noise at Work regulations apply. 3. As said the gas although not poisonous (toxic) it is an asphyxiant and can displace oxygen. It should only be use in well ventilated areas. In some circumstances it might be a good idea to install an oxygen level monitor.
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