Rank: New forum user 
|
A office worker suffered a broken ankle while playing football for his local team and is in plaster with the use of crutches.
His office manager has enquired about him coming into work on occasions to attend important meetings etc.
My gut feeling is against this as it opens up all sorts of issues ranging from:
Getting to work
Stairs (there is a lift)
Going to the toilet etc.
Evacuation in emergency (office is upstairs)
Moving from drop off point to workplace (Winter months ahead).
I informed his manager that a detailed risk assessment will be required before any decision can be made. I would also need a note from his doctor agreeing to this.
Has anyone else been faced with this dilemma, and if so, what course of action did you take?
Many thanks.
Jon
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
Jon, there are thousands of people who safely attend work whilst in plaster (particularly post-ski hols). My advice is to look at ways of getting him to be productive again asap whilst managing any of the potential problems.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
Jon
Years ago I smashed my ankle. I tried to return to work early but was totally barred which retrospectively was the correct decision as it was an engineering company and had oily floors inn places.
As a past sufferer he needs that six week period for recuperation and body repair. If the management is desperate for him to attend meetings then set him up for home video conferencing, that way he is in 'safe' surroundings 'resting' and the companies liability reduced (IMHO).
Badger
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Getting the nod from the GP helps. I have had something similar and we put the person on the ground floor (temp basis) and nominated a designated person to assist in the event of an evacuation.
Does the person want to return to work as this?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Should not be in work. A danger to himself and those around him/her. You will not only need to RA the injured but also those around them. Think hard about this one. If he/she were made worse by the company letting them work then would there be a claim? Would your RA now be considered Sufficient and suitable if he/she tripped over the sticks?
Just a point of view.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Jon
Have you or anyone else asked the employee what he thinks? You seem to have identified the main issues which need to be considered if he wishes and thinks he is able to come into work. However, why should a detailed risk assessment be needed? Also, if any doctor thinks it appropriate to issue the employee with a fitness to work note, either advising against work period or working but subject to conditions regarding his temporary incapacity, surely the doctor will provide one.
You seem to be set against the employee coming into work but don't have strong grounds to support your opinion. If a few minor adjustments can be made regarding the issues you raise, the employee would almost certainly be better off being at work than languishing at home. Positive OS&H should be about enabling rather than banning.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Jon
I broke my ankle at the end of August. I had to be totally none weight bearing for 8 weeks. I also live some distance from the office and getting there would have been difficult. I was surprised how tired I got moving round the house. Plus in an emergency I would have had to evacuate down 4 flights of steps (no way you would get me in an evac chair!) and would have had to wait till everyone else was out as I was slow at doing this. I was able to compromise and do some work from home - see threat working while sick. I would not have an issue in principle with someone working with a broken leg but I think each situation will be different and must be assessed individually.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: New forum user
|
This does seem to have opened up debate, with valid points being made on both sides.
As yet, I have to determine the employees position on this (if he desires to return to work, then of course, we should do all we can to facilitate this).
But if he feels that he is being coerced (my polite way of saying pressured), then there are other issues to deal with.
At the moment, all I have to go on is the initial enquiry from the office manager. But what I will do is get to speak to the IP on his own, away from any coercion!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
As I said just an opinion Grahan. Not going to get into a row over this. My post stands as it is. Office workers move about a little bit I'm sure.
Like I said, a point of view. If cost effective and you can give a rock solid RA and all goes well go for it. Not for me though. I would not sign the RA for sure. Stay home, get well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Zimmy - are you suggesting that anyone is not fully mobile is a risk to others?
I personally see no issue if this is assessed and managed correctly considering all factors, environment, tasks, fire safety arrangements and including his GP's guidance.
Its another matter if he does not want to come back though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Need to make sure that he doesn't have a sick note else he isn't covered on the company insurance and just do a simple risk assessment but more importantly a personal fire evacuation plan
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
KAJ safe wrote: I have had something similar and we put the person on the ground floor (temp basis) and nominated a designated person to assist in the event of an evacuation.
Ditto to this. Good points above though around the 'Individual' to consider that will sway one way or the other the cases above as examples justify why the decision was taken to include/exclude them from the workplace. If there was nothing around complete 'no weight bearing for x - or similar' then I would look to make reasonable adjustments to accomodate return to work ASAP.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user 
|
Samm wrote:Need to make sure that he doesn't have a sick note else he isn't covered on the company insurance and just do a simple risk assessment but more importantly a personal fire evacuation plan Ditto on this. If you have an OH provider then I would also suggest you refer him to them as well for further gudiance/advice. Sometime an emloyee may downplay the extend of their injury to others, which they tend not to with clinicians. B
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Go for it then.
DP For the record anyone who is not fully mobile is of certain risk to others in an emergeny. That is a matter of fact. That is why we make things that help. I know that is not the PC way but it is the truth. 28 stone people with heart problems do not and cannot move (as a rule) as quick as others.
Have a nice day :-)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Guest
|
Jon I have come across this situation many times, firstly set up a Personal Evacuation Plan if you have evacuation chairs available with suitably trained staff and a buddy system set up then there is no reason why he cannot work upstairs in an office, also lay on transport for him to attend work even if that means paying for taxis.
Unless off course his doctor has insisted on full rest
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Zimmy, you have a point of view I respect that.
Mine is that if somebody wants to return to work (emphasis on want's to) then we should support this in an appropriate manner - after all in the circumstances you describe we offer that same appropriate support to these collegues.
Do the RA consider all factors make a decision.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
I would suppose a lot of this is based on what actual work he does? and in what environment?
The way I would look at this is :
Employee wants to come to work
Doctor sins him off and states fit for work
the company must feel its imperative that he gets to work.
Then all we can do is put in place reasonably practicable measures, can transport be arranged,reduced working hours, assistance where required,etc etc
remember there are many permenant disabled people at work, who seem to manage just fine with a specific risk assessment
Although would also agree with other poster, if he is that important, can you not set him up to be a temp home worker, I know this has issues that has to be dealt with . but where there is a need there is a way!! by mutual consent
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
Conference call on speaker 'phone if need be? It would be most inadvisable to put pressure on the employee to attend when Doctor's instruction indicate to the contrary.
Beyond that period, any suggestion of full-blown Risk Assessment seems rather OTT to me. Personal Emergency Evac. Plan perhaps(= walking wounded let everyone else past first).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
As with many other circumstances raised on this forum, including those of employees with medical conditions, the decisions to be made depend on the particular circumstances involved. In cases like this one, they obviously include the nature of the employee's injury, his work activities and type of workplace.
My earlier comments were based on experience over the years of office workers with broken ankles who were able to do their work reasonably well with just a few minor adjustments being made.
Also, situations should be reviewed from time to time. In some cases it may be appropriate for employees who are off work to return on a part-time basis or earlier than expected.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Agree with Ron
Conference call option or possibly laptop with Skype for meetings.
And as others have stated if he is signed off from work then applying pressure to get him back (if that’s happening) could open a serious can of those little wriggly blighters later (if injury made worse or he sustains further injury due to him being back at work).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Have to agree with Graham.
To just say that someone who has their ankle in plaster is unfit to work and a liability seems a bit strong.
Take each case on merit. Including whether that person feels up to it themselves. By no means force someone to work if they are in plaster but they may prefer the option to work occasionally. If they are generally a fit and healthy individual then they may be quite mobile, even whilst in plaster. Yet someone else who is not so inherently robust may need to rest up for the entire time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Firstly, it's perfectly reasonable to enquire whether this individual can come into work. The manager is doing exactly what he should.
Secondly, the fit note is guidance and often does not have the detail to decide whether a return to work is appropriate. Your occupational health provider should provide guidance on this.
Thirdly your insurer will not be concerned you have introduced somebody in this condition back into the workplace providing you can demonstrate you have assessed risks and made reasonable adjustments.
As somebody who attended work with the same injury in an office environment I think there is much ado about nothing.
From an occupational health perspective I can also say that the longer someone is off the harder it is to get them back in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
John J and others - a very common sense approach. While there are jobs that would present a challenge - such as North Sea fishing, an office job should be OK.
I broke my foot once, and as a result got very good on crutches. In the first week I had to give a talk for my Company at a venue that necessitated taking four different trains, including quite a big walk at Euston Station, with my overnight bag slung around my neck.
I wasn't a danger to others, and they weren't a danger to me. When the fire alarm went off I waited for people to go ahead of me and then went down the stairs at my own pace (which got quite fast with practice).
Mowing the lawn was much more of a challenge!
Be guided by whether the person is capable, as many have said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
'Went down stairs at own pace'. Maybe overcome by smoke. Someone has to risk life to get a person out. OK sounds like a plan then. In a real like or death situation people panic. Survival mode kicks in. People do some odd things.
Self assessing don't work as we run with our own self image.
Just a point of view. :-) I know I'm not PC but that, as they say, is my call.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Clairel said "Yet someone else who is not so inherently robust may need to rest up for the entire time."
OK Clairel who's been telling you about me! I admit to being a little overweight but not that much.
Zimmy I agree in part with you. I only returned to work when I knew I could negotiate the stairs in an evacuation at a reasonable speed, at that time I was still on crutches and as I say you would not get me in an evac chair I'm chicken! But I agree you should take every case on it merits. Is company insurance invalid if you have a sick note? Even if it is its easy to get round. My Doctor was surprised when I wanted to return to work but he signed a "fit note" for me specifying reduced hours and a phased return and in consultation with my manager we worked it out fine.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Zimmy - it is perfectly possible to be objective. If in doubt, get out a stopwatch and see. Blanket rules, based on a worst case are not good business sense. Judge each case on its merit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
zimmy wrote:
DP For the record anyone who is not fully mobile is of certain risk to others in an emergeny. That is a matter of fact.
So on that assumption anyone with a disability or who is overweight is a risk to others in the workplace and should not be allowed to work as they are risk to others. Wow. The fight to eradicate discrimination has just not happened in your little world then. And that would be you breaking the law then. So you also like to pick and choose which laws you want to break (see thread on smoking in cars). Those in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones Zimmy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
If you are able to make reasonable adjustments to accommodate this temporary disability then you should do so. If the employee is able to get to work and does not have a job that requires him to stand all day or move around a lot then I cannot see why he would stay off. He's broken his ankle, not come down with bubonic plague.
I would regard reasonable adjustments as being moving him to the ground floor, perhaps purchasing an evac chair and training your fire marshals. None of these things would be regarded as "outlandish". He is on crutches so he is not incapable of moving around, lots of disabled people manage to work everyday in offices and other environments with much less mobility than this gentleman has. Do a risk assessment sure, identify the issues, talk it over with the employee, but personally I think it's a no brainer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
I stand corrected, but discrimination is, sadly a fact of life. No amount of legislation will alter that. But we have to keep on trying. It's a mind set and, strange as it may seems at first glance,a mind set I don't sign up to. I volunteer with handicapped people both physical and otherwise so think of me what you will. But people with mobility problems do present a risk. What is wrong with people who are injured staying at home? It does seem to me that we are going backwards not forwards. Are things so bad that we are stating to expect our injured people should make every effort to get to work? I think it puts pressure on others to come back to work early before they are fully fit because 'Jack' made it in. Making all sorts of adjustments etc may well work in a big company but in a small place perhaps not. Perhaps you guys work for large organisations who can take a financial hit but who knows.
I do not set out to upset people (and that is the truth oddly enough) but I do tend to talk rubbish from time to time
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
Some interesting views. Personally I really do ‘tire’ of the ‘if he’s signed off sick then he’s sick; end of story’ camp. Such an approach lacks the imagination and creativity that I feel is a pre-requisite for most of us to fulfil our role.
This really isn’t difficult and DEPENDING ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES there are any number of ways to assist people back to work in some way or other, even if they have a leg in plaster. It won’t work for everybody, but nor should it be a blanket bar for everybody either. I have done it any number of times, and if you work with the individual, their manager, and if necessary GP and/or OH you will find that you can often relatively easily facilitate a return to work quicker than you might otherwise. It really isn’t rocket science.
I do not believe that you necessarily need a note from his Dr agreeing to this.
With regard to the comment on ELI at #13, I think that this is a red herring and holds little or no water. The new guidance on the Med 3 (which has always been ADVICE) from the DWP refers to this.
Depending on the circumstances I don’t think you necessarily need to be subjected to some ‘in depth’ risk assessment (oh yippee more paperwork) but you do need to think about mobility, evacuation etc etc. In most cases this shouldn’t overly taxing in order to find a sensible and proportionate solution.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
zimmy wrote: Are things so bad that we are stating to expect our injured people should make every effort to get to work?
Yes! They are contracted to be at work not at home - If they can they should. All the usual hoops, reasonable adjustments etc etc etc etc etc but ultimately yes - in work.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
I also agree that those people saying "keep them at home" have missed the point that many people who are off with a physical condition like a broken ankle will by week 2 be bored out of their minds and actually perfectly able to come into work with some sensible precautions. I have had exactly this situation with a manager who was desperate to get back to work as daytime TV was driving him crazy (watched any recently? Then you know what I mean). There was no pressure on him to come back - it was what he WANTED - and working with him and his GP and our OH advisor it was no trouble to set up a few extra precautions. How wrong would it have been to say "'elf & safety says no"? Oh and those of you who think there is still such a thing as a sick note need to get up to date! ;-) http://www.dwp.gov.uk/fitnote/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
This post takes me back to the good old days when the wife had bowel cancer followed by Chemo. She had to return to work when on the juice as her boss would not pay her sick pay (at his discretion) because she was capable of working and the Chemo just made her free ill. I was much the same when she toook a hit with liver cancer.
I've said enough on this (all breath a sigh of relief)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Finally from me, those who are OH biased will no doubt also be able to reference statistics that prove the longer someone is off the harder it is to integrate them back - sorry I can't quote/reference the data but recall a Group level OHA telling me this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
I had a similar issue 3 months ago with a dept. manager who had severed both ligaments (cant remember which ones tbh) at the back of his leg.
The issue was resolved through consultation with the particular employee and his doctor, careful consideration of the hazards (and controls) balanced with the employees own need to keep mobile to improve healing and reducing healing time.
Every situation is different, hence risk assessment. It can be a difficult call but it worked fine for us. Clearly set out the ground rules in writing to the employee before he returns through his phased-return programme.
Hope this helps
Merry xmas to you and yours.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Hi Jon,
Managed to work everyday when in plaster a few years back with minimal adjustments required. If the company AND the guy in plaster are ok with him coming into work, then i dont see any problems whatsover when the correct arrangements are put in place.
The country is full of offices and workplaces with workers whose mobility may be compromised by both long term and short term conditions and it should never be seen as a barrier to work.
Cheers
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
Hi
Bring them back, not just for meetings, but to work, as soon as safe to do so.
In terms of emergency, develop a personal emergency evacuation plan. If they are on crutches this may be as easy as getting a nominated colleague to help them down the stairs.
Assess their desk and how you can have their ankle raised, do a DSE to help with this.
Another thing to consider is this - if it was not a temporary mobility impairment, but a permanent disability you would have to make reasonable adjustments (an rightly so). Do the same for this person.
Try contacting a vocational rehab person.
Ian
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.