Rank: Forum user 
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Princpal Contractor has told us to get a cherry picker in for what amounts to 5 minutes work at lower first floor level just to trim some damp proof membrane from a reveal. Whats wrong with using ladders with decent controls in place?
We now have a stand off (pun intended), where we have to provide RA/MS to undertake the work, this I'm more than happy to do. They seem more than happy to allow us to spend £300 +, with other associated risks, for a simple task of low intensity and very short duration.
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In my opinion use of the cherry picker creates a greater risk than doing the job by ladder - so long as the job is short duration, not involving exccessive weights or force and ground conditions are suitable.
However, most of have come across these stupid blanket rukes imposed by ignorant PC's and unfortunately it is their site and so their rules. Sorry.
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Refer them to indg 402 ladders and acceptable uses of light work up to 30mins with three points of contact - but if they are the PC they may not want to listen so make a start on the RA amd MS!
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Three points of contact when trimming a damp proof course? Where does he or she work@ Billy Smarts? :-)
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Claire - yes, it does pose greater risks IMHO; and that starts from the hire company's depot and route to site, environmental issues, segregating transport from people on site and so-on. And... yes it is their site and site rules (first thing i'd say).
We have worked for them for some time so I pretty much know how to load the RA/MS.
I suspect also they may have need for a cherry picker elsewhere on site.
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Thanks Zimmy, I really hadn't thought about that one ;)
Part of our control system when using ladders are; ladder spurs, stand-off and a 'ladder-belt' manufactured by ladder-fix. Three points of contact. The intended work is also at a height that requires the arms to go between the rungs.
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Rank: New forum user
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I see we are in the silly season no wonder health and safety gets a bad name sometimes.
Yes there is pros and cons
Cherry picker-logistics,competent person with the certification, harness and checklist, certification for machine, adequate turning circles for the equipment etc
Ladders -3points of contact, hands up when does any person working on a ladder have three points of contact come on!
I work for a principal Contractor and my stance would be the ladder or even better a mobile scaffold as long as all the control measures are in place and it was as reasonably practicable(balance or riski.e. severity of harm against cost in terms time,effort and money where the additional control measures are totally disproportional to the risk then the duty is discharged).
We are heading down the road to over kill we're a simple task can be made more dangerous
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Wee alpha,
4 points of contact for me.
Two feet and two shins/knees
;o)
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Nick
Is that not 6 points of contact
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paulrun26 wrote:Princpal Contractor has told us to get a cherry picker in for what amounts to 5 minutes work at lower first floor level just to trim some damp proof membrane from a reveal. Whats wrong with using ladders with decent controls in place?
We now have a stand off (pun intended), where we have to provide RA/MS to undertake the work, this I'm more than happy to do. They seem more than happy to allow us to spend £300 +, with other associated risks, for a simple task of low intensity and very short duration.
Would they not meet you in the middle if you hired a podium for half an hour?
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frankc wrote:paulrun26 wrote:Princpal Contractor has told us to get a cherry picker in for what amounts to 5 minutes work at lower first floor level just to trim some damp proof membrane from a reveal. Whats wrong with using ladders with decent controls in place?
We now have a stand off (pun intended), where we have to provide RA/MS to undertake the work, this I'm more than happy to do. They seem more than happy to allow us to spend £300 +, with other associated risks, for a simple task of low intensity and very short duration.
Would they not meet you in the middle if you hired a podium for half an hour?
Perhaps: however, after talking to my operative to discuss a method statement, it is the top of a first floor window - so a bit high. Then comes the point of training. He's trained to use our ladder system but not a podium (a whole new can of worms..)
Thanks to you all for your views thus far.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Who left the membrane in need of trimming in the first place? Surely that was poor supervision/management that allowed shoddy workmanship to raise this silly issue?
IMO the safest most economical manner of work is the best. If that is the cherry picker/MEWP then so be it.
Why do so many so called experts express so many opinions about an issue on a site that none of us has seen?
There was a ladder accident recently in a unit I had some involvement with, the worker climbed a ladder to carry out a simple task of approx. two minutes duration, he fell from the ladder and fractured both arms in multiple places.
How would you all feel about that if it happened on your watch after you decided against the MEWP?
Hey - be careful out there !
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Billy Smarts - like it !!! See if they have someone with 3 arms while you're there!!
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Billy Smart - old hat try Marty on Madagasca 3 "Afro Circus" clip on you tube. It nearly beats Finding Nemo! - Nearly
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What about platform steps? If it's not that high but you want stability, this would seem an obvious choice.
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Not sure if it would work for your application, but we have a Monkey Tower that we use for similar, low(ish!) level work when clients insist on the "no ladders they are the work of the devil" rule.
Simple enough to use, portable too.
Google Monkey tower, I believe they can be hired.
note: i have no connection to the providers of this equipment, other than we have one for occasional use.
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Rank: Super forum user
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paulrun26, from what you describe, I don't see a problem with your approach (three point contact maintained from a stable ladder for a short duration) but then I'm not the PC!
Some Clients also ban ladders 'site wide'.... until they need to get something done urgently!
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Thanks everyone, some good points and balanced views, thanks firesafety101 and tenn1svet.
RA/MS submitted and approved, job done and signed off.
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Those of you who have said that ladders are too risky just use podium steps or a MEWP, seem to have bypassed the fact that both podium steps and MEWPS also have accident histories.
It's about using the most appropriate tool for the job and with work at height none of them come without risk.
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When the WAH regulations first came out I received a letter from a Principal Contractor stating that in future working from ladders would be banned on their sites.
I wrote to him informing him that was not what the regulations required, and quoted a number of likely possibilities of when working from ladders might reasonably be required.
I also informed him of the likely cost implications that he would need to accept if the ban was implemented.
He would not be moved.
Two weeks later I attended one of their sites and was amazed to see a person removing ceiling mounted smoke/particle detectors while working from.......STILTS!!
I took a photograph, sent it to the Principal Contractor (did not get a reply, and come to think of it we didn't get any more work!)
Unfortunately I have lost the photograph.
Rodger Ker
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rodgerker wrote:
Two weeks later I attended one of their sites and was amazed to see a person removing ceiling mounted smoke/particle detectors while working from.......STILTS!!
They are a reasonably established method of getting access if you only need hop-up type height gains and the ground is flat and level (so, typically, reaching ceilings in a building). For example: http://www.screwfix.com/...-plastering-stilts/23876
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Clairel wrote:Those of you who have said that ladders are too risky just use podium steps or a MEWP, seem to have bypassed the fact that both podium steps and MEWPS also have accident histories.
It's about using the most appropriate tool for the job and with work at height none of them come without risk.
I offered the podium as a safer option to the ladder. The collective prevention offered by the podium is also further up the hierarchy in the work at height regs.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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'Three points of contact when trimming a damp proof course? Where does he or she work@ Billy Smarts? :-)'
The simple answer when working off a ladder is to be clipped on to a suitable rung with a karibiner and harness - hands free and with three points of contact!
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Rank: Super forum user
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Ray, unless the ladder is secured then that doesn't work as it just means that both the ladder and person falls.
Frank - podium steps are usually for one person therefore the 'collective' bit doesn't apply.
Podium steps have created a false sense of security with working at height. Accidents can happen when they are not used correctly, which is often.
Saying that ladders should be used as a last resort is wrong in my opinion. The right equipment for the job means sometimes a ladder is the right equipment.
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Claire
I thought the ladder being secure was a given - obviously not.
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Ray, in our case here, the ladder has spurs at the feet, a stand-off at the top, and we were able to tie the ladder through a window. We use a propriety ladder belt, not much scope for an emergency rescue!
Claire , I agree, ladders when appropriate. When is appropriate??
I guess it will always be that judgement call and as usual, one has to justify if it goes wrong.
Slightly off topic, I recall in a training session last year, SMSTS, I think, we were shown a video made by an arial association?? That tied a ladder to the wall at about 60 degrees, negating the need for a pull test on the eye bolt, they then demonstrated a fall and emergency rescue. Anyone else seen this?
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paul, how was the ladder secured to the wall if not by using a tension strap and eye bolt?
My understanding is that the optimal angle for securing a ladder is 90 degrees, the angle between the thumb and first finger when stretched, unless you happen to be a Vulcan.
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Hi Ray
A strap around the mullion of a conveniently situated window.
And yes you are correct re the angle; my train of thought was trying to remember the video, which I can't seem to locate on youtube.
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Clairel,
'Ray, unless the ladder is secured then that doesn't work as it just means that both the ladder and person falls'
I don't think it's as likely a scenario as you think (ladder and person falling) when only using a one / two section ladder at said height and given the stated control measures!
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frankc wrote:Clairel wrote:Those of you who have said that ladders are too risky just use podium steps or a MEWP, seem to have bypassed the fact that both podium steps and MEWPS also have accident histories.
It's about using the most appropriate tool for the job and with work at height none of them come without risk.
I offered the podium as a safer option to the ladder. The collective prevention offered by the podium is also further up the hierarchy in the work at height regs.
I too offered platform steps as being a more stable alternative. Everything has accident histories - 3 people die each year testing if a 9v battery works on their tongue but we know that is safer than sticking your tongue on a busbar! It's degrees of risk and platform or podium steps with outriggers and brakes are safer than ladders.
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RayRapp wrote:
My understanding is that the optimal angle for securing a ladder is 90 degrees, the angle between the thumb and first finger when stretched, unless you happen to be a Vulcan.
Or suffer from rheumatism, apparently. :-)
Apologies to Claire for my 'collective' faux pas but i'd still suggest the podium a safer option than working from a ladder like the OP has stated....and i believe the regs state the same.
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SP900308 wrote:I don't think it's as likely a scenario as you think (ladder and person falling) when only using a one / two section ladder at said height and given the stated control measures!
You're right, that'd never happen..........would it?
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wclark,
nice one!
But as you can see no spurs, standoff etc.
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karibiner and harness ?
And trained in mountain rescue techniques eh Ray? I would have a friend in the mountains then :-)
Rob (waiting for the toe to get better before once more heading for the Welsh mountains)
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wclark1238 wrote:SP900308 wrote:I don't think it's as likely a scenario as you think (ladder and person falling) when only using a one / two section ladder at said height and given the stated control measures!
You're right, that'd never happen..........would it?
I'd seen that arrogant jerk before. That's why they try to ban ladders- people.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Hmmmm, working from a ladder that has been properly considered is perfectly acceptable. Paul suggests ladder stays, stand-off, harness and cow tail, incl securing the ladder to the structure. This is a safe approach for the task (as described).
The youtube clip features a bloke jumping and swinging around on an unstable ladder in an unlikely 'work' situation.
I get the comedy value but not the relationship with this thread!
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Rank: Super forum user
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SP900308 wrote:Hmmmm, working from a ladder that has been properly considered is perfectly acceptable. Paul suggests ladder stays, stand-off, harness and cow tail, incl securing the ladder to the structure. This is a safe approach for the task (as described).
The youtube clip features a bloke jumping and swinging around on an unstable ladder in an unlikely 'work' situation.
I get the comedy value but not the relationship with this thread!
It does highlight the requirement for suitable and sufficient training.
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And while we have been posting 36 suggestions on the best way to do a simple job - someone has just gone up and trimmed the membrane. Perhaps that is why our advice is sometimes ignored.
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Rank: Super forum user
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tigers,
Paul had this sown up from the outset. The PC couldn't accomodate his 'safe' approach!
We don't need to find 'the best way' to do the job as there are multiple safe options, we need to find a 'safe way' that the PC will accomodate.....a different thing altogether!
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Late posting on this topic I know, but you may be interested that when appearing for a client at a tribunal the claimant's barrister suggested that the appropriate equipment, for a 5 second job nailing a 1kg bit of soffit from 1 metre off the floor on a bungalow, was a cherry picker! When I pointed out this was not reasonable she first demurred then suggested that it should have been a scissor lift used. The judge threw it out and awarded £8000 costs against the no-win, no-fee law firm. Aw shucks, isn't life unfair
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