Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
JohnW  
#1 Posted : 13 February 2013 19:55:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

Word of mouth going round my locality that I'm offering CDM Co-ordinator services and Safety Adviser services to small builders. Yes I have done so, reluctantly in some cases because of lack of project/site management, but now I am turning away work on 'small projects'. By small projects I mean like Bob The Builder building two semi-detached houses on a piece of land that he bought. Typically Bob The Builder has a day job e.g. an estate agent, or has a kitchen-and-bathroom design shop on the High St., who fancies himself as a house builder - and indeed HAS built houses, maybe one five years ago, and another one eight years ago. So the latest example, I have a couple of meetings with Bob The Builder, the project will take 9 months, so it was a good start for him to want to appoint a CDM-C. But he has done so only because the local water/sewage company told him to. We try and thrash out a Pre-Construction Plan. So Bob The Builder wants to be Client, Designer, Principal Contractor - all three. Yes he designed the building and got Bill The Architect to do a drawing. Neither know anything about CDM. Bob The Builder has already given the ground-worker a day to start digging next week but I tell him he can't start the project because we don't have suitable project management in place. I rang him this morning saying I can't continue as CDM-C, and wrote confirming. Am I being harsh or realistic writing this: >> Thanks for calling back this morning, sorry I can’t make things work out for us on your project, but as a CDM-coordinator I need to be satisfied that we can ensure adequate supervision and safety knowledge on site at all times, by someone who can demonstrate knowledge/skills/competence for work at height and compliance with the Construction CDM regulations. Your project lasts more than a month and so you need to appoint experienced people to ensure the project complies with the CDM regulations. I needed to know if there would be suitable site supervision from the Client or Principal Contractor, BOTH of which is currently you, but as you can’t commit to daily visits to site and you have no safety management experience, nor CDM training, then your arrangements are not in compliance with the CDM regulations. Also your experience as a builder or designer, a house every 5 years or so, is insufficient and cannot demonstrate the necessary experience in construction, design and safety management. It’s not realistic for you to carry out all the duties of Client, Designer and Principal Contractor all at once, with insufficent experience/training. For example you said in your notes that "any steelwork required will be calculated by an engineer when required" and that sort of comment is unacceptable. I strongly recommend that you gain a certificate from the CITB for a construction supervisor, SSSTS, see the attached information. From that you will understand CDM. And you should employ an experienced construction foreman to be your Principal Contractor, to manage the site on a daily basis, to ensure safe working at all times. And you do need someone like myself to be your CDM Co-ordinator, someone who can work with you and your foreman or Principal Contractor to set out and manage a proper construction plan. For you, as the site Client, I attach a guide CDM_client.pdf Note that the guide says: if you fail to appoint a CDM Co-ordinator or Principal Contractor you as the Client will be legally liable for those duties. If those duties are not fulfilled, this can leave you open to potentially expensive civil action and also a charge by the HSE, leading to criminal prosecution. As I said, all the documents I’ve provided you with may still be useful, but I’ve removed my name from the F10 notification. I won’t send in any invoices. I will send you more information on how to find another CDM coordinator and Safety Consultant. Good luck with the project, just get it managed. <<
Stedman  
#2 Posted : 14 February 2013 13:07:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stedman

John, You won’t be the first CDM-C to walk away from a client and I would simply not make a big thing about it on the basis of ‘keeping your own doorstep clean’. In short a poor Client can be a major liability and if they are putting you PI insurance, professional reputation and livelihood at risk, I would simply advise the Client that you do not believe that they are meeting their duties under the CDM Regulations and therefore you have no option left but to resign from the project. My advice is to keep the resignation simple, firmly walk away, issue a fresh F10 (without the CDM-C) and keep your own council! In my experience, once you have done the deed, clients do try and draw you into further dialogue, but it is much safer to keep a professional distance from the situation as you are no longer involved.
achrn  
#3 Posted : 14 February 2013 15:28:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

JohnW wrote:
For example you said in your notes that "any steelwork required will be calculated by an engineer when required" and that sort of comment is unacceptable.
I don't understand this bit. Why is it unacceptable for a client/PC to decide (and indeed minute) that they will obtain specialist designer input when it is required? That looks like the right attitude to me, not an "unacceptable" one. In general, I think your text reads like 'The Designer' is a role in the same way as The client and The Principal Contractor. It isn't, and if he's 'designed' any aspect of the building, he's a designer under the regs whether he likes it or not (or, indeed, whether he appoints anyone else to also be a designer of an aspect).
JohnW  
#4 Posted : 14 February 2013 17:14:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

stedman, yes I do take your point, he has accepted that I am no longer involved in the project so it's best to take that as a clean break and that's the end of the matter. achrn, what I meant was that I thought it was unnacceptable at this stage for the 'Client/Designer' not to know where in the design there would be steel. Seemed to me he was going to be making it up as he goes along and was unable to say to me now where/what steel was required by his 'design'.
boblewis  
#5 Posted : 16 February 2013 10:26:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Build it as you go along sounds like many a Design Build contractor I know including VERY big ones.
boblewis  
#6 Posted : 16 February 2013 10:28:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

You should also be very wary of using the B the B phrase as this is a copyright I think, and as the original one, back in late 1990s, before the TV fame of another I really must protest at the use of my name. Bob
firesafety101  
#7 Posted : 16 February 2013 21:58:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Hhmmmmmm Interesting one this. How difficult is it for a builder to construct a house? If it was for a domestic client there would be no need to notify or appoint CDM-C. Surely this will begin with an architect's drawing and will contain requirements for structural engineer? If its only one house then it cannot be an unmanageable project as long as the Client/PC/designer etc. etc. agree to take it slowly and listen to your advice. Agree your fees to be paid in stages and if he doesn’t play ball then walk away and advise him to stop work until he has a replacement. If he tries to get ahead of himself then you stop the work and explain the situation. I would see your point if this was a big fish attempting to get one over the HSE by using you as his security shield but if a not so big fish why not help him along the way and do things in small steps? No wonder H&S gets a bad name. IMO.
JohnW  
#8 Posted : 18 February 2013 17:14:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

Thanks for the additional comments. To Firesafety01, yes, it is only a 'small project', and I do 'help' these small builders when I can and if they listen. I've provided CDM-C services to three similar building projects in the last couple of years and I'm happy to guide them with regard to CDM, WAHR and the welfare regs, and particularly with scaffolding issues, and I'll stick with them to the end if they take on board the advice and avoid cutting corners, and are happy for me to conduct toolbox talks and look for corrective action where issues have come up. But on this occasion I just could not see me being comfortable with a client/PC/designer with so little experience. Remember, as well as CDM-C I was also going to be the safety consultant, inspecting the site, and I just could not see me sleeping at nights spending just 1 hour a week on site and the site not being supervised for the other 39 hours a week. boblewis, regarding Bob The Builder, I don't think I can be breaching copyright really :o) and no offense intended for any Bob construction lads here. I was never really a fan of the kiddie cartoon, not one I encouraged my own kids to watch. The only PPE I ever saw him wear was a hat and a hi-vis, he would clamber around roofs and towers etc but never wear fall-restraint kit, and I never saw him wear eye or ear protection when he was drilling, and the sites he worked on never segregated vehicles and pedestrians :o) I may sound petty but I do think more H&S thought should have gone into that TV cartoon, maybe post-2007 they have done so, I don't know.
Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.