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jarsmith83  
#1 Posted : 04 March 2013 16:45:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

Dear all

Can anyone tell me if small low risk shop/office premises (single stairway) have to have emergency lighting as a legal requirement? And, is emergency lighting required as a legal requirement at final exits?

I am interested in legal requirements and not best practice.

Thanks
Heather Collins  
#2 Posted : 04 March 2013 17:10:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins

It depends on what your FRA says. Ask yourself the following:

Could anyone be inside the premises during the hours of darkness? (think winter afternoon Dec 21st)

If the power failed, could they see to get out safely?

If the answers to those are "yes" and "no" then yes you need some sort of emergency lighting in order to "safeguard the safety of a relevant person". See below for legal origin of this phrase.

Article 14 of RRRFSO

"The following requirements must be complied with in respect of premises where necessary (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant person"

including:

"emergency routes and exits requiring illumination must be provided with emergency lighting of adequate intensity in the case of failure of their normal lighting."

DP  
#3 Posted : 04 March 2013 17:21:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
DP

When you say low risk do you mean from a safety perspective?

As the previous poster notes it depends on the circumstances of the premises both internally and don’t forget externally.
jarsmith83  
#4 Posted : 04 March 2013 18:14:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

DP wrote:
When you say low risk do you mean from a safety perspective?

As the previous poster notes it depends on the circumstances of the premises both internally and don’t forget externally.


Low risk i.e. Risk Assessed as low risk from a safety prospective

The reason I ask is the very reason that you have mentioned, its glassed fronted with a street lamp out front which does add light should the lights go out but I am aware this is tiptoeing the guidelines.

I am working with someone who is very reluctant to spend any money on fire provisions, signage and extinguishers have been agreed and to the current BS standards. Certification for boilers and electrical equipment agreed. Means of raising alarm agreed. But the sticking point now is trying to talk the owner of the premises in investing in emergency lighting.

The client is very demanding and requires me to justify everything i.e. provide the information to hand with regards to what I am referring to. For emergency lighting I have made reference to HM Government guidance for offices and shops and RRFSO, as pointed out, Article 14.
DP  
#5 Posted : 04 March 2013 18:25:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
DP

I have PM'd you
Safety Smurf  
#6 Posted : 05 March 2013 08:59:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

Jarsmith,

The likelyhood of an outbreak of a fire is normally very difficult to establish and so for the most part it would be no more than a guess. Subsequently, Fire risk should be calculated on the event of a fire happening. In short;

"don't try to calculate the risk of fire happening, calculate the risk if a fire happens".

I would not personally except light fall from artifical means outside of the building as suitable and nor I doubt would the enforcing authorities.
son of skywalker  
#7 Posted : 05 March 2013 10:05:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
son of skywalker

What do they do if the external light fails?

Close down their operation or keep working?

Phone their local authority to complain that it affects their fire evacuation plans? To which they will be politely told to go away!!

The emergency light is required.

Son Of Skywalker
jarsmith83  
#8 Posted : 05 March 2013 10:23:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

I have sourced information that states that torches can be provided as emergency lighting, signage indicating their use which is visible in darkness is suffice.

Thoughts??
A Kurdziel  
#9 Posted : 05 March 2013 10:40:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

jarsmith83 wrote:
I have sourced information that states that torches can be provided as emergency lighting, signage indicating their use which is visible in darkness is suffice.

Thoughts??

Jarsmith
You are getting desperate aren’t you?
Will the employees be expected to wear these torches at all times? Will they be head mounted? There will have to be a system to ensure that the torches work. Will a weekly check be enough?
Or you could just ask the client to fit emergency lighting.

Safety Smurf  
#10 Posted : 05 March 2013 12:55:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

jarsmith83 wrote:
I have sourced information that states that torches can be provided as emergency lighting, signage indicating their use which is visible in darkness is suffice.

Thoughts??


Torches are exceptable in an emergency, not as emergency lighting.

For instance I have some mid terrace industrial units where the LL refuses to put any lighting on the external face at the rear to illuminate the path to be used in the event of an evacuation. I can put lighting on my own unit but not of that of my neighbours. So, until the matter is settled I ensure plenty of torches are avialble at the rear doors (And instruct, and check, etc). This is only acceptable because until the matter is resolved there is no alternative but I have at least discharged my duty.

Picture your day in court and you trying to justify that torches would do because you didn't want to tell the client to install proper emergency lighting.
jarsmith83  
#11 Posted : 05 March 2013 13:42:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

Desperate, kind of

I would like to have this work complete and wrapped up but with an increasingly difficult client I am having to justify every little thing. I was handed this information on torches, which to say the least baffled me as I was lead to believe this was for outside areas whereby lighting was restricted i.e. car park leading of place of safety. Although I would just have to emergency lighting installed and be done with it. I am due to submit my findings this week and will submit and risk losing a client on moral grounds as I do not think I can accommodate him any further.

Frustrating to say the least, but the choice will be the clients whether he accepts my report or carries on.
Zimmy  
#12 Posted : 05 March 2013 20:22:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

We seem to be locked into the ‘minimum we can get away’ with again. Why not change-out a few fittings for ones that have integral EM units?

I bet someone will have a pop at this but never mind the legal requirement do what will make things safer. Pretend it is your child in the shop/office and then think ‘what would I like to see in place?’ You may just think again
jarsmith83  
#13 Posted : 06 March 2013 22:15:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

Thanks Zimmy

I never really thanked you from a while back regarding my peer review meeting last year with IOSH but it was much appreciated.
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