Hi All

Been informed by royal mail that goods, i had posted by international air mail, have been destroyed.
Standard pre-written letter, no information as to what they have destroyed.
As luck would have it, i have only sent one parcel which contained Zippo lighters, which are not of a butane/gas filled pressurized type, if filled would contain lighter fluid.

It seems that as of 13 Jan 2013 you are no longer allowed to send, what they would class as a used lighter. You can still send a new lighter.
This is for the protection of their staff, members of the public and transport regs etc. Which as they state they take very seriously. (And rightly they should).
No distinction as to how old the lighter is and to how long ago the used lighter would have contained fuel. Since most of the lighters i would post as of a collector, would be 30 years plus old, no likelihood as to it containing any fuel. Plus as a collector we do not even have the flint in them.
Also as of June/July this year it will also included the UK that used lighters will not be allowed to be transported by royal mail and will be destroyed, and the sender can be prosecuted.
(So now collectors will have no way of collecting lighters).

Anyway to the point.
With my safety hat on:
When speaking to the royal mail, i pointed out that at this time there is over 7000 used lighter on sale on eBay, just for this week, all using royal mail as a carrier including the use of royal mails international signed for service, just like what I used to send my – now destroyed lighters.
I asked them, since you take this situation very seriously, would it not be prevalent to inform eBay that sellers are no longer allowed to post used lighters internationally and some sort of pre-warning that as of june/july 2013, will no longer be allowed to send used lighters in the UK.
Since we are now 6 weeks past the 13 January deadline, no action has been taken, so there is a potential of up to 7000 dangerous packages moving around the postal system, which as in the royal mails words, would be dangerous to staff, members of the public etc.

I have also spoken to eBay regarding this – but having to deal with a non UK call centre, not sure if they understood what I was talking about.

As of yesterday, If i decided to sell a used lighter, I still have the option to send it internationally and have the option to send it by RM International signed for.

Just for it to be destroyed.

Me and others who collect used lighters have worked out that if we took a lower number sold on eBay of around 4000 a week and took the cheapest postage option, then the RM are looking to lose around £300000 a year at least.

I think that the RM will not go out of their way in stopping this, since the lose of revenue will be high, but will use it to their advantage when it came to anyone trying to claim for a lost or damaged packet, then the sender would find out that the item is banned from the post and RM would not pay any compensation. Which they have done in the past on other items.

To add insult to injury, as of the same date, they are now going to let you send a max of 2 small medical aerosol cans in the post.

Since the RM and eBay are not taking any action, was looking at passing this onto HSE.

Any thoughts

As a consultant, when someone brings something to your attention regarding health & safety do you ignore it or just blame 7000 individuals, who you hope have all read the T&Cs or do we think its better to inform the main companies involved, who if willing could resolve this now.

And as their own statement states that they take the welfare of there employees. Customers and everyone else seriously that they are happy to leave it to 7000 individuals, hoping that at some stage they will read the T&C etc.

Or in one quick move change the system, so as not to allow people to list Used Lighters as they have done with knives and since it only covers international at present, inform people that as of june/july this will also include posting within the UK. Which would also be easy for eBay to do.

You have entirely missed my point. As a consultant I prefer to make myself informed of rules and regulations and not expect others to do it for me, especially if those others have no specific vested interest in doing so.

EBay exists to make profit from allowing people to sell stuff to other people. They also have a list of prohibited items. It does not include lighters. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with them how you get your item to the buyer, as long as you do so. They don't care if Royal Mail has changed their rules or not, that's the seller's problem. Presumably it's still fine to list used lighters on EBay if you ask the buyer to pick up the item or if you use a courier other than Royal Mail who don't have the same T&Cs?

Royal Mail has very clearly set out rules. They don't allow used lighters to be sent through the post. I'm not sure what you expect them to do differently?

Yes this sucks for people who collect lighters, but I cannot see what you expect EBay to do. EBay does have community forums - why not raise it there? Also if you call them in the afternoon UK time you are more likely to get EBay Customer Services in Dublin and not the one in the Philippines. Not that I think they will take any action, when you see some of the items they allow to be sold...

Graham, the answer can be found on Royal Mail's website, where the definition of what is and is not allowed is this:

"New and unused empty lighters may be sent unopened in their original retail packaging.

Lighters and refills containing flammable liquid or gas (including used butane and petrol cigar and cigarette lighters) are prohibited."

So if it's not in the original packaging it will be destroyed.

Back to my main statement – do we ignore the fact that there is a potential for 7000 mini bombs (Royal Mails words to me) going to float around the postal system and when its brought to their attention they do nothing. Since as you are saying its down to 7000 individuals to read their T&Cs. So allowing the risk of 7000 mini bombs to continue to be handle by their staff, transported etc. Why bother to bring up Dangerous Goods.

Where a very simple solution is to tell eBay to change their listing setup, so you can not list used lighter with a posting option, only buyer collects. Which they do on other items.

This to me seems so simple and is very easy for eBay to do. Its eBays site, they give you the option to pick posting as an option to send the used lighters, and since they would also know its against the law and could lead to a person being prosecuted, would it be better for all to just remove the option.

Would eBay not be liable for allowing dangerous goods to be sent by royal mail, when they have the power to stop this – and by not doing so, are liable also to prosecution.

Lets say it went to court – would eBay get off with it – when it was shown they new about the update to dangerous goods to include used lighters, they had it in their power to easily change their system to stop people posting dangerous goods from their web site, but did nothing. We are not talking about the odd one or two, its 7000.

As for the international mail centre, they have no idea from xray if the lighter they scanned is used or new, collectable used lighter, also are sent in their original cases etc.
The difference would be that as a collectable lighter, the flint would be removed, since they breakdown after time and cause a mess, where a new one would still have its flint in it so would cause a spark if used. They will have to open every single parcel, they think contains a lighter to check.

Speaking as a collector of used lighters – non butane/gas pressurized types – if they are going to all the trouble of opening the parcel, taking the off the inner packaging, taking the lighter out of its case (Original), taking the little plastic bag off it.
Would they not try to light it. Surely that would be a quick and easy method to get to the point. As I have been informed by royal mail, No.
So if I send a 30 year old brass lighter, showing some unit who served in the Falkland’s war that’s never been used, but the brass is tarnished it will be classed as used and destroyed.

I have no business regarding lighters and do not use the royal mail that often. So no buisness loss to me in anyway.
I do collect lighters though, so do have an instrest in this matter.
But i am also looking at it with my safety hat on.
i have no problem, with the new T&Cs that the royal mail have put in place. that down to them, even though i would disagree with them regarding used lighters.

But since you are only responding to a small part of my orignaly reply, which needs to be read with the rest.

I will put it in another:
I have 7000 workers, they all work in a yard, which has a big hole in the middle, i give them a tool box talk, telling them the dangers of falling down the hole. if one of my 7000 works falls down the whole, i am not liable. Or would it be said, that i could have put a barrier in place to stop my workers falling down the hole. Since I knew of the dangers.

As i mentioned before. royal mail know eBay are allowing 7000 sellers a week to list used lighters as they have stated as dangerous and can not be sent through the post. so they do nothing about it.
eBay are allowing 7000 sellers a week to sell used lighters and are allowing them to use their payment & postal options, which allow you to use royal mail as a carrier, which will lead to the items you are sending to be destroyed and the potential of being prosecuted.
So where eBay can easily change the options with a few clicks, why bother and in doing so are allowing dangerous goods to be sent through the postal system – you say this is ok.

A blanket ban as they say would make it easier for them, but they are still going to have to open every single parcel, since until they do, they will not know if they are used or not, so if they go to the trouble of doing it, would they not see if the lighter actual caontained fuel, by trying to light it.
So a blanket ban is fine, but my issue is, if they were really worried about dangerous goods, would they not try a stop people sending used lighters and where they have been informed that there are 7000 people who have not read their T&Cs selling them, would you not think they would be interested in stopping it.

But since at the present it only covers internationally, and not at present the UK, so nothing has gone out of the UK could they have not returned them to the sender with a note and even a charge if they like.

Valuable used lighters worth £100s of pounds being destroyed how – I better keep my eye on ebay to see if they turn up. .

Hey, I get the feeling that this post is less about safety and more about something else!

I couldn’t definitively say that e bay would be liable or not, but I strongly suspect not and I personally think you’re rather grasping at straws.

I hear your analogy and I would suspect that most of us know the answer and that many of us will also know that cases will often hinge on the difference in the facts of each case i.e. I don’t think that the 7000 workers and the hole analogy/example is not sufficiently comparable with what you are trying to accomplish with e bay.

The one thing that I have learnt in life is that sometimes (not always) you have to shrug your shoulders and move on!

Oh, as an aside

“If there is a hole in the floor, we cannot reliably expect to avoid an accident by training all of the people to walk around the hole. It is far simpler to cover the hole”

David MacCollum past President of the American Society of safety Engineers

The Royal Mail employ many very experienced staff who deal with the problems caused by prohibited items in the post, working also with other agencies to intercept items arriving from overseas.

But I doubt that this expertise is available in every sorting office. Why should it be like that, and would we accept the increase in stamp prices if it was?

I expect some blanket assessments of compliance with the T&Cs, regulations etc rather than testing of any suspect item(s). After all, if it IS hazardous, why should the sifting office staff put themselves at additional risk?

I have occasionally received parcels from the Royal Mail for assessment, reporting and safe disposal when some non-compliant biological shipment had been intercepted. I suspect that is not particularly common, since the default option would be dispose without further testing.

Now look at this from what I presume is a safety conscious individual posting this original question. Is it appropriate to risk the welfare of Royal Mail staff just to save a bit of tat that shouldn't have been in the post in the first place. This tome it was a cigarette lighter, but what if it was something more hazardous. Do you expect the positive to glove up with an array of precautionary safety aides, or just press the red reject button and get on with the job of delivering the letters and parcels of those who stick to the rules. Isn't your view a little like saying that I won't fix that damaged stair tread because some of those ho might trip won't actually hurt themselves? In this respect, if it is considered dangerous, then it's dangerous. Deal with it.

Harsh? Well perhaps so, but less that 15 minutes before reading and responding to this thread I had cause to refer to the Royal Mail web site about the packaging requirements for a shipment of biologicals. Do it right, or lose the shipment and risk a penalty