Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
pete48  
#1 Posted : 08 March 2013 08:56:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

Yesterday ClaireL and I made observations on a thread that approached the subject from different ends. Inevitably subsequent observations included some polarisation around those views. Nothing wrong with that because it provides the best response for readers. But it did put some, what I found amusing, pictures of stereotypes in my mind.
Being that it is Friday I thought I might share them with you. Perhaps you might have some to add. Disclaimer, all characters are fictional and do not represent any individual living or dead. (do you remember when that appeared at the end of every movie?)
The two tribes of safety.
The Petes. Standing in the high place with a tablet in their hands. A tablet given by those who teach. Note though that the tablet is no longer hewn from stone; this practice was banned by the Petes because it was just too risky for the stonemasons. These tablets hold the wisdom of law, regulation, codes and best practices. Petes cast these tablets into the real world in the unshakeable belief that they their contents must be followed everywhere all the time. Failure to do so will always brings retribution in the form of the FFI, a new and terrifying creature in the real world. Petes don’t like risk and try to eliminate it from everywhere. Petes are rarely seen in that place called the real world and therefore have no understanding of it or its inhabitants.
The Claires. They love the risks. They are found walking across the swamp that is the real world. Wearing the boots of pragmatism and carrying the trumpet of forthright speech. They feel that they can protect themselves and others from the bitter wind of righteousness that blows constantly from the high place. They wear a cloak of practicality to keepout the wind and in which there are many pockets that hold things called solutions. Practical solutions for practical problems and some also have strategic solutions for strategic problems. Claires live in the real world and therefore understand it better than Petes.
Of course in the real world there is only one tribe, not two. We are all an amalgam of the various stereotypes. Yesterday I was in the high place, tablets in hand, leading the seekers of wisdom to best practice. Today I am wearing my boots of pragmatism as I visit a half dozen businesses where I know I will face less than perfect situations. I will probably have nothing in my pocket of solutions for some and no need of moving towards better practice in others even though they have not read all the tablets from the high place.

Enjoy it wherever you are today
Clairel  
#2 Posted : 08 March 2013 09:00:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

lol :-)
David Bannister  
#3 Posted : 08 March 2013 09:09:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Clairel, you disappoint. Seeing you online I was eagerly awaiting a response. Pete48 - great posting.
David Bannister  
#4 Posted : 08 March 2013 09:12:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Also meant to add: There are those of us who really enjoy the spectacle of gladiators v tigers.
damelcfc  
#5 Posted : 08 March 2013 09:12:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
damelcfc

If we are all standing in the playground and you guys are the team captains I know who's team I want play for!

Have agood weekend all.
Clairel  
#6 Posted : 08 March 2013 09:14:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Nothing to be disappointed about David. I gave my response. I think the image of me is somewhat charming and probably very accurate!! Gave up the Pete Tribe Of Safety a long time ago when I stopped being an enforcer. Power does nothing for me. I'll wear my cloak of practicality with pride :-)
Jane Blunt  
#7 Posted : 08 March 2013 09:24:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

I belong to the Claire tribe.

Working in a research environment, when people are boldly going where no person has gone before, you have to be able to predict and decide what you should do. Pragmatism laced with a good dose of science and having regard to what is written on Pete's tablets.

And another thing - when the members of the Claire tribe tell you to run for the hills, you had best do so!
RayRapp  
#8 Posted : 08 March 2013 09:31:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Pete, very interesting and profound reading.

With experience comes a typology of characters in our small world. There is lesser opportunities for individual foibles because we all get sucked into the corporate mindset eventually. Still, some of us old guards hold out as long as we can and I would like to think I am firmly in the Claire camp.

Ray
HSSnail  
#9 Posted : 08 March 2013 09:37:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Think I'm only allowed to be a Claire on the weekend but perhaps that's a post for a different forum!
chris42  
#10 Posted : 08 March 2013 09:38:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Is the cloak of practicality impervious to the attacks of the terrifying creature FFI or even LAL (Long Armed Law)?
Clairel  
#11 Posted : 08 March 2013 09:43:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Not impervious no.

But my trumpet of forthright speech shines brightly against the evils of FFI and LAL, showing it for what it is and rallying the downtrodden to march against injustice with the knowledge that truth and pragmatism must ultimately win the day.

(.....hey I'm quite liking this persona!!)
chris42  
#12 Posted : 08 March 2013 09:49:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

:o)
JJ Prendergast  
#13 Posted : 08 March 2013 10:22:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JJ Prendergast

I'm with Clairel & Jane

Pragmatic, dosed with understanding of science/technology.

I struggle with overboard risk assessment for trivial/minor issues.
redken  
#14 Posted : 08 March 2013 14:46:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
redken

http://www.hse.gov.uk/ne...h-invisibility060313.htm

Which tribe would we judge Judith to be in?
Stephen25053  
#15 Posted : 08 March 2013 15:08:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Stephen25053

Interesting topic! My own view is that Judith would be very much in the pragmatic real world. In fact I know that she is. Then again, most of you would consider me (and Judith) to be the terrifying, cruel manifestation of FFI and LAL as I am an Inspector with HSE. Interestingly, those of you who may have met me (and I know some of you are out there) have never seen me that way as I have come from the real world (military and commercial industry) as has Judith and everyone else in HSE. I have a question which is ,perhaps only slightly, related to this topic. Do you see HSE as a part of the Health and Safety function in your business or as 100% Regulator and what do you think they should be? I will give my own views on this question at a later date and I woulkd thank you foir your views in advance!

Regards,

David
Gunner1  
#16 Posted : 08 March 2013 15:08:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Gunner1

Excellent post. I would not want to be placed in any of the two tribes because I am me. I stand by my judgements and decisions and always endeavour to do my job in a professional manner.
Mr.Flibble  
#17 Posted : 08 March 2013 15:31:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mr.Flibble

When two tribes go to war, A point is all you can score...have this stuck in my head now!
David Bannister  
#18 Posted : 08 March 2013 15:31:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

@Stephen25053. Sadly I think that recent changes have placed HSE so far away from much of the business world that they are now likely perceived as "enemy" rather than "supporter".

I get the feeling that the good works of the past nearly 40 years is being destroyed because of political dogma.
Clairel  
#19 Posted : 08 March 2013 15:35:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Now now guys. Can we stop degenerating this into a serious thread. It started so well!!! ;-)
redken  
#20 Posted : 08 March 2013 15:48:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
redken

David Stephen 25053, In my early days in Scotland 1986-97, the inspectors from HSE and HMIPI were definitely part of my SHE function. Since coming down south, the EA have by and large remained part both individually and from the corporate help aspect. Sadly that is no longer true from HSE,my last encounter with a helpful person was the HSE contributor to this presentation and that was in adverse circumstances in 2000:
http://www.energyinstpubs.org.uk/pdfs/427.pdf

In my opinion the view of HSE inspectors is biased too much by the bad guys they come across. Also they increasingly take the stand that theirway is the only way. it is refreshing to read Judith, I had met her a few times in her CIA days. I find it increasingly difficult to reconcile her views with that of the Inspectors that I come across.
chris.packham  
#21 Posted : 08 March 2013 15:59:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

I'm with Claire. As someone who has worked in an wide variety of engineering companies, I learned early on that what mattered was whether it worked. My employers were not interested in whether there was a tome of scientific studies or regulations to support what I was doing, just whether it was ensuring that the system produced what it was supposed to produce, in the right amount and quality, at the right cost and at the right time.

This message was reinforced when I spent several years working in Libya building oil pipelines and tanker loading terminals (I was actually there the night Gaddaffi came to power - interesting to say the least - and that must date me!!!). The location and logistics precluded anything other than the pragmatic approach, i.e. the 'can we cobble something together that will solve our problem?' I think we actually called it improvisation, something I feel many in this modern world don't know about.

Chris
chris42  
#22 Posted : 08 March 2013 16:12:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

If the cloak is not impervious (I keep thinking of the film with Perseus and his red cloak that Medusa’s head was put in) to FFI and LAL, should either be changed so they match up? Should there be a business advantage (From H&S) to one company that interprets things one way, where another interprets it another?

Is the Cloak traditional tweed with leather patches? Or more like superman’s which can stop things fired at it. (Guess you are not going to say Hi Viz)
Clairel  
#23 Posted : 08 March 2013 16:22:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

chris42 wrote:

Is the Cloak traditional tweed with leather patches? Or more like superman’s which can stop things fired at it. (Guess you are not going to say Hi Viz)


Tut tut. I'm a modern girl and those moors require something more practical. Gore tex it is!

jwk  
#24 Posted : 08 March 2013 16:28:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Tell you what, the Nikwax stuff with wash-in waterproofing beats gore-tex hands done in my opinion,

John
pete48  
#25 Posted : 08 March 2013 16:43:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

Hi everyone, just back home. Boots of pragmatism off, cloak hung up and kettle on the stove. Sorry I haven't been able to contribute further today; the real world intervened;-)

Thanks for the responses, glad you enjoyed the topic. The weekend, well then I turn into a Jezzer! Nuff said?

p48
Mr.Flibble  
#26 Posted : 08 March 2013 17:55:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mr.Flibble

Gore-tex Claire? its Spandex all the way! :)
damelcfc  
#27 Posted : 08 March 2013 19:07:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
damelcfc

Stephen25053 wrote:
Do you see HSE as a part of the Health and Safety function in your business or as 100% Regulator


Spent 20 years inviting you guys in for a tea and a relaxed introduction as the new bloke looking after Company x on your patch.
I would genuinely never consider this anymore - absolutely when I start my new role, this is not on my agenda anymore.
(Never had an IN or PN or FFI btw anywhere I have worked)

Cannot take the calculated risk anymore of letting you into my real world ;-)
johnld  
#28 Posted : 08 March 2013 21:25:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnld

Before I retired I was involved with safety and various enforcement agencies for over 30 years.

Over those years all enforcement agencies and the inspectors have slowly moved from being individuals that you knew and could approach for advice and guidance to simply policing the workplace.

In some cases, but not all, the inspectors simply being book followers and having little knowledge of the process being carried out. I am sorry if that sounds a bit harsh but it has been my experience over the years

To give an example I once had a visit from an EA inspector looking at our procedures for using open sources. The conversation started by the inspector admitting that he had no knowledge of work with isotopes as his background was waste disposal and he would simply have to use a tick box check list.

Going back to Davids (Stephen25053) question “Do you see HSE as a part of the Health and Safety function in your business or as 100% Regulator”

Unfortunately I now see all enforcement agencies as 100% regulators and with the push for all to impose fees and fines I see very little prospect of that changing. Which I personally I find very sad.

I feel we can achieve more by working with HSE and others by working with then not keeping them at arms length.

John
toe  
#29 Posted : 08 March 2013 23:48:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

You post made me smile Pete.
I always read with enjoyment,but rarely post.
Stephen25053  
#30 Posted : 11 March 2013 08:52:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Stephen25053

Thanks to those who have expressed their views on whether HSE is purely a Regulator or plays some part in your Health & Safety function. It has been suggested to me privately that I should perhaps start a thread with this as the initial question as it is likely that the question is lost a little, so I intend to do that this morning. My concern is that I might open Pandoras' Box and not be able to deal with the fallout but I am a risk taker!

As a quick response to those who have already expressed a view to my question - it is my view that HSE can not, and should not even attempt to be, a part of any organisations health and / or safety function. Regulation must be a fine line between cold, dispassionate assessment of the evidence one is faced with and being a human being who tries to understand and consider the circumstances of those businesses that we visit. We must them apply those to the legal instruments which set out the regulatory landscape, to do anything else is actually quite 'risky' in my view and is likely to lead to inconsistency. I hope to discuss in more detail when I post a dedicated thread to this question.

Thanks and regards,

David
Tigers  
#31 Posted : 11 March 2013 10:16:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Tigers

#4 where do I fit in? Sometimes a Pete sometimes a Clairel (but that is for another Arena).

Cheers Tigers.
son of skywalker  
#32 Posted : 11 March 2013 12:13:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
son of skywalker

Clairel

Do you wear a coat of many colours?

Time for another song.

Great posting.

My split personalities are still arguing over whether I am a Pete or Claire

Son of Skywalker
Users browsing this topic
Guest (2)
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.