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hserc  
#1 Posted : 19 March 2013 14:21:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hserc

Hello to all. Is it permissible to install a full height/width set of venetian blinds in front of a double width, final exit door? The reason they have been installed I think is a mix of reasons: cosmetic (all the other windows and doors have them); and privacy the office will be doing R&D and general public can walk past and maybe see inside. I can't find any specific guidance on this but it just seems wrong. During an escape, someone would have raise the blinds to almost full height, then open the door before escaping. The escape door otherwise complies with regs. The pragmatist in me says, make it obvious how to find the pull cord and provide the necessary information and training for the occupants. But the cautious HSE bloke in me says - take it away. Any views? Thanks in advance
SamJen1973  
#2 Posted : 19 March 2013 14:26:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
SamJen1973

Hi, Can't you just replace the door with a type that doesn't have a window? Or if that's too costly, paint the window. Either way you avoid the need for blinds and the risk of delayed exit. Sam
LATCHY  
#3 Posted : 19 March 2013 14:27:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
LATCHY

Do you then need to rethink your fire strategy and change your escape plans with the added time calculated in for the raising of the blinds, I am sure in the regs it expalins that fire exits must be kept clear at all times?
stonecold  
#4 Posted : 19 March 2013 14:27:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

I would remove the blinds as they are most definately an obstruction in my opinion and they would possibly hinder the ability of a person to open the door quickly and easily in an emergency. If privacy is an issue why not consider privacy film that can be cheaply installed onto window panes.
hserc  
#5 Posted : 19 March 2013 14:47:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hserc

The problem we have is it is a leased building (on a university campus) and has been fitted out for us by the landlord (the University) and to the same standard as their other buildings on campus (so that they all look the same). So changing the doors is out of the question. Ironically - all the glazing already has fitted for us privacy films so people cannot really see inside - so why they took the measure of fitting the blinds as well is beyond me, other than being purely cosmetic. Whilst I appreciate the comments thus far (and I agree in principle), if I ask the landlord to take them down, I'm probably going to need more than just opinion - preferably some official guidance or more. That's not meant to sound like being ungrateful for the comments - far from it - but thus far the landlord has not been the most co-operative I have ever known. So as well as this thread - I'm off on a browse...
stonecold  
#6 Posted : 19 March 2013 15:12:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

RRFSO 2005 Emergency routes and exits 14.—(1) Where necessary in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that routes to emergency exits from premises and the exits themselves are kept clear at all times.
hserc  
#7 Posted : 19 March 2013 15:23:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hserc

Thanks for that. I'm always a little cautious where the information states "Where necessary" and wonder under what conditions something may not be necessary? Or is that just me being picky-picky? ;-) I'm tending towards getting them removed...
smitch  
#8 Posted : 19 March 2013 15:25:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
smitch

Have you considered/suggested removing the blinds and fitting window film, as this would stop people looking in (if that's an issue) and also prevent possible glare on computer screens etc if relevant. http://www.abodewindowfilms.co.uk/ I have no affiliation with above company but have used their products.
Ron Hunter  
#9 Posted : 19 March 2013 15:49:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

I don't fancy my chances of finding that cord (perhaps for the first time) in the event of alarm and power failure with only emergency lighting to guide me. What about a film over the glass instead?
stonecold  
#10 Posted : 19 March 2013 16:00:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

hserc wrote:
Thanks for that. I'm always a little cautious where the information states "Where necessary" and wonder under what conditions something may not be necessary? Or is that just me being picky-picky? ;-) I'm tending towards getting them removed...
Good luck trying to convince a fire officer or, if your really unlucky a judge that it wasnt "necessary" to keep a fire exit clear
hserc  
#11 Posted : 19 March 2013 16:06:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hserc

I mentioned in an earlier post that privacy film was already installed, that's why I was surprised to see the blinds as well. The only issue is that they are double width, full height glass doors. Even with a slight reduction in light transmission due to the privacy film, it may give reflections to nearby DSE users which will sit with their backs to the doors, causing a real potential for screen glare. If required, perhaps an additional tint film could be provided, or some other roller type blinds fitted to the doors themselves could be installed, which would not obstruct the doors or door release mechanism. I'm inclined to take the RRO 2205 statement as the most authoritative I have seen thus far and recommend removal of the blinds, as to my mind the blinds constitute an obvious obstruction when lowered.
hserc  
#12 Posted : 19 March 2013 16:07:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hserc

RRO 2005, obviously. (Typo)
Dene  
#13 Posted : 19 March 2013 17:14:33(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Dene

Remove the blinds ASAP
Zimmy  
#14 Posted : 19 March 2013 18:42:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Is there any other answer the remove them yesterday? Not the best plan I've heard of. Please note: Not one swear word in sight. I've turned over a new leaf
Ron Hunter  
#15 Posted : 19 March 2013 19:29:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

There are roller blinds that you can fit to the door (as opposed to the frame) that would provide privacy, prevent glare and not impede emergency egress.
messyshaw  
#16 Posted : 19 March 2013 20:01:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

hserc wrote:
Thanks for that. I'm always a little cautious where the information states "Where necessary" and wonder under what conditions something may not be necessary? Or is that just me being picky-picky? ;-) I'm tending towards getting them removed...
The 'where necessary' bit is really important as it separates current UK fire legislation from it's prescriptive predecessors & allows the Responsible Person to risk assess the situation and develop bespoke control measures. In this case, it's clearly not acceptable for the blinds if this escape route could be used by 50 students evacuating a lecture hall, but is perhaps (??) more acceptable where perhaps 1 or 2 admin staff work in a low risk office. However, my gut feeling is that venetian binds on any escape route are very difficult to justify as their opening method is slow & unreliable. If you are wishing to hide this ugly door, why not use standard hung curtains, drapes or net curtains? Hung on a rail or track with easy to slide openings - and not obstructing any fire exit signs or emergency lighting, it's a relatively cheap option which will not upset the landlord or bank manager too much. Talking of the landlord, any fire risk assessment will be the duty of the employer and not the landlord. So if the FRA says get rid of the blinds, then that's what you do. If necessary, removing the blinds and carefully returning them to the landlord Good luck
achrn  
#17 Posted : 20 March 2013 08:40:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

If all the windows down the wall have matching blinds, is it really REALLY obvious which set of venetian blinds has the fire door behind rather than just a window / glazing? I wouldn't be keen on expecting people to find the cord, tug it up, latch it properly and then open the door in a fire situation. Mostly we don't even expect people to be able to manage a door-handle in a fire situation - working a venetian blind first seems crazy. But the issue of expecting them to remember which venetian blind it is that they need to work is something that I don't think has been mentioned.
chris42  
#18 Posted : 20 March 2013 08:52:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

hserc wrote:
The problem we have is it is a leased building (on a university campus) and has been fitted out for us by the landlord (the University) and to the same standard as their other buildings on campus (so that they all look the same). So changing the doors is out of the question. ...
Are blinds on all the other doors in the university ?, if not then their H&S advisor may be on your side and also advise them to be removed ? It would be a shame for them to be damaged in a fire drill :o)
jontyjohnston  
#19 Posted : 20 March 2013 10:46:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jontyjohnston

Just completed a fire risk assessors course with the FPA so feel I might offer a sensible suggestion... Remove the blinds, they could introduce an unacceptable delay to exiting the building in an emergency. One other thing, what are they made off? The area immediately around the final exit point must be a sterile area, i.e. No combustible materials! Might give you another facet to the argument for the landlord.
boblewis  
#20 Posted : 20 March 2013 11:17:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Unless the landlord has placed a clause in the lease re the blinds simply remove tham and replace them when the lease terminates. He actually has no formal right to interfere with the FRA in the area rented/leased to yourself. Privacy is always possible by other means than delaying exit flows. Bob
son of skywalker  
#21 Posted : 20 March 2013 14:09:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
son of skywalker

The Fire Safety Scotland Regulations states "Means of escape 13.—(1) Where necessary in order to ensure the safety of relevant persons in respect of harm caused by fire, the person with duties under section 53 or 54 must ensure that routes to emergency exits from relevant premises and the exits themselves are kept free from obstruction at all times." As employers are responsible for Fire Risk Assessments then you must do this and take on board the information above. Keep fire exits clear. There are also roller blinds that can be fitted to individual glass panes on the fire exit door. They do not block push bars and don't obstruct the exit. SOS
Route66  
#22 Posted : 20 March 2013 15:12:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Route66

I can't imagine any justification for having a Venetian blind lowered down across an escape door. As other have already quoted, the Regs require 'free from obstruction'; let's not quibble about 'Where necessary', the Responsible Person should be saying that is is necessary. If you have to exit via a lowered blind, just exactly how are you going to do it? Raise the blind... well that's at least 30 seconds if you don't mess it up because of panic or the hoard behind you wanting to get out. Push past it... what and get tangled up in the cords and slats? Meanwhile, what is the blind made of? Bet you it's plastic of some kind or wood with a lacquer/paint finish, so inflammable. IMHO the Venetian blind scenario is a complete no-no.
hserc  
#23 Posted : 22 March 2013 10:35:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hserc

Well I think the advice here is pretty unequivocal, so I will ask to have them removed - I'm not happy they are there at all. I do worry about the level of knowledge of HSE matters on the campus as a whole if they see fit to do this kind of thing anyway. There are a number of other "niggles" I'm not happy about either. It was quite literally the very first thing I noticed during my inspection and, so obviously incorrect. I'll be looking very closely at other H&S issues of the fit-out by the landlord, I can assure you all. Many Thanks.
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