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LATCHY  
#1 Posted : 16 March 2013 08:25:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
LATCHY

During an audit of a building site, the site supervisor was asked where was the safe access and egress for the excavation that was taking place, the site supervisor pointed out the excavator driver had cut a series of steps into the side of the excavation which were to say the least a bit hit and miss. Would anyone consider this to be safe access and egress? Views please.
Canopener  
#2 Posted : 17 March 2013 18:11:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

You don't give us much to go on, i.e. depth of excavation, soil conditions etc, but on the face of it; NO!
LATCHY  
#3 Posted : 17 March 2013 19:08:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
LATCHY

canopener wrote:
You don't give us much to go on, i.e. depth of excavation, soil conditions etc, but on the face of it; NO!
The depth of the excavation was about 4-5ft deep, the soil condition was part clat part, soft an dthe weather conditions where drizzle turning to rain, surely with sustained use of the steps an hazard will be created.
Chris c  
#4 Posted : 17 March 2013 19:59:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Chris c

Latchey Have you got more info? Was the excavation battered back or was there any sort of excavation support systems been used this link will give you a good idea of the systems on the market including access and egress to trenches http://www.mgf.ltd.uk/our-products/ Regards Chris
RayRapp  
#5 Posted : 18 March 2013 11:40:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Cutting steps into an excavation is primarily a control to ensure the excavation does not collapse. That said, the steps could be used for access/ egress if they are shallow enough and robust. Normally a ladder is used at either end of the excavation.
LATCHY  
#6 Posted : 18 March 2013 13:34:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
LATCHY

Quote=RayRapp]Cutting steps into an excavation is primarily a control to ensure the excavation does not collapse. That said, the steps could be used for access/ egress if they are shallow enough and robust. Normally a ladder is used at either end of the excavation.
I fail to see how steps cut into an excavation can be seen as safe access and egress, under use they will become slippery, especially in wet weather no matter how robust the soil.
firestar967  
#7 Posted : 18 March 2013 13:49:12(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
firestar967

It would depend what the excavation is for and what the duration is it open prior to backfilling. If the excavation is open for some time normally my company will put in a proper set of steps (wood with concrete steps with a handrail and other controls such as barriers to prevent someone falling into the excavation of course) but if only open for short duration then ladders can be used depending on depth or just some steps cut in to allow limited access to the excavation. Yes the ground will become slippery but dependant on the construction work the whole area could become slippery (e.g. cross country pipeline work in all weathers). I personally would not say as the details are too vague and dependant on the circumstances. However, cutting in some steps are used if for limited access and short duration and where a ladder would be impracticable due to the angle and depth so can’t be safely secured.
LATCHY  
#8 Posted : 18 March 2013 14:01:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
LATCHY

firestar967 wrote:
It would depend what the excavation is for and what the duration is it open prior to backfilling. If the excavation is open for some time normally my company will put in a proper set of steps (wood with concrete steps with a handrail and other controls such as barriers to prevent someone falling into the excavation of course) but if only open for short duration then ladders can be used depending on depth or just some steps cut in to allow limited access to the excavation. Yes the ground will become slippery but dependant on the construction work the whole area could become slippery (e.g. cross country pipeline work in all weathers). I personally would not say as the details are too vague and dependant on the circumstances. However, cutting in some steps are used if for limited access and short duration and where a ladder would be impracticable due to the angle and depth so can’t be safely secured.
The excavation is open for a long period of time as a concrete base is to be poured with reinforcing steel mesh, so that a retaining wall can be built, operatives are in and out of the excavation carry tools etc and in my opinion soil steps are no substitute, if its clay it will become slippery quickly if it is anything less it will start to crumble, and if someone does injur themselves I am pretty sure the line We were only using them for a short period wont stack up.
SteveL  
#9 Posted : 18 March 2013 14:08:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SteveL

if the excavation is for base and retaining wall then put in a proper access, not a ladder. Remember if the ground is going to become sticky and slippery then climbing a ladder with tools etc in and out they will lose their footing anyway. If cutting steps then why not stone them up so that they retain their shape and practicality.
firestar967  
#10 Posted : 18 March 2013 14:19:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
firestar967

Latchy if open for such a period I agree with Stevel. Kind regards
RayRapp  
#11 Posted : 18 March 2013 14:40:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

LATCHY wrote:
Quote=RayRapp]Cutting steps into an excavation is primarily a control to ensure the excavation does not collapse. That said, the steps could be used for access/ egress if they are shallow enough and robust. Normally a ladder is used at either end of the excavation.
I fail to see how steps cut into an excavation can be seen as safe access and egress, under use they will become slippery, especially in wet weather no matter how robust the soil.
Then the steps would not be suitable - simples.
LATCHY  
#12 Posted : 18 March 2013 14:49:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
LATCHY

RayRapp wrote:
LATCHY wrote:
Quote=RayRapp]Cutting steps into an excavation is primarily a control to ensure the excavation does not collapse. That said, the steps could be used for access/ egress if they are shallow enough and robust. Normally a ladder is used at either end of the excavation.
I fail to see how steps cut into an excavation can be seen as safe access and egress, under use they will become slippery, especially in wet weather no matter how robust the soil.
Then the steps would not be suitable - simples.
That was my point from the begining of this thread, they are not siutable-simples
NickRoarty  
#13 Posted : 18 March 2013 20:32:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NickRoarty

Then why ask the question if you have your answer already?
LATCHY  
#14 Posted : 19 March 2013 06:10:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
LATCHY

NickRoarty wrote:
Then why ask the question if you have your answer already?
Is that not what this site is about askiing questions and seeing what other peolpe think the clue is in the heading disscussion forum, and that is what I did put it out for discussion.
RayRapp  
#15 Posted : 20 March 2013 10:11:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

NickRoarty wrote:
Then why ask the question if you have your answer already?
Nick, you beat me to it.
LATCHY  
#16 Posted : 21 March 2013 06:54:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
LATCHY

Quote=RayRapp]
NickRoarty wrote:
Then why ask the question if you have your answer already?
Nick, you beat me to it. As before this is a discussion forum how can one be ridiculed for asking the opinion of other professionals so that one can then base a decision on clear judgement?
RayRapp  
#17 Posted : 21 March 2013 17:19:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I think you need to consider HOW you ask a question or alternatively HOW you respond to an answer, because there appears to be a conflict which, with respect, does not come across too well.
LATCHY  
#18 Posted : 21 March 2013 19:34:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
LATCHY

RayRapp wrote:
I think you need to consider HOW you ask a question or alternatively HOW you respond to an answer, because there appears to be a conflict which, with respect, does not come across too well.
LATCHY  
#19 Posted : 21 March 2013 19:38:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
LATCHY

LATCHY wrote:
RayRapp wrote:
I think you need to consider HOW you ask a question or alternatively HOW you respond to an answer, because there appears to be a conflict which, with respect, does not come across too well.
Which is it? back at ya, I dont really understand how you can assess me like that
Sweep  
#20 Posted : 22 March 2013 16:44:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Sweep

I think there are several issues with access and egress into battered excavations. As a minimum the batter will require a design check even if it is based upon some basic guidance from a company standard poster. If the ground is liable to heave or move or their are services crossing then a more robust CAT 1 check is required from the company design team. That aside battered excavations are exceptionally difficult to install a ladder in due to the angle of repose and the 1 in 4 rule for ladders. Hence it is a common place practice to cut steps into the batter. These will become slippery and are generaly not fit for purpose especially in inclement weather. it may be more suitable to have a gradual slope at one end of the excavation with a blinding of concrete for some grip to walk down. For an excavation that is open for some time it would probably be beneficial to shore with frames and props in accordance with an installation guideline and erect a ladder platform with gate. Tools and equipment could be lifted in via excavator and skip.
Ron Hunter  
#21 Posted : 22 March 2013 16:56:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Good answer from Sweep.
LATCHY  
#22 Posted : 22 March 2013 18:23:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
LATCHY

Sweep wrote:
I think there are several issues with access and egress into battered excavations. As a minimum the batter will require a design check even if it is based upon some basic guidance from a company standard poster. If the ground is liable to heave or move or their are services crossing then a more robust CAT 1 check is required from the company design team. That aside battered excavations are exceptionally difficult to install a ladder in due to the angle of repose and the 1 in 4 rule for ladders. Hence it is a common place practice to cut steps into the batter. These will become slippery and are generaly not fit for purpose especially in inclement weather. it may be more suitable to have a gradual slope at one end of the excavation with a blinding of concrete for some grip to walk down. For an excavation that is open for some time it would probably be beneficial to shore with frames and props in accordance with an installation guideline and erect a ladder platform with gate. Tools and equipment could be lifted in via excavator and skip. Thank you very much for that answer,that is the reason I use this discussioin forum some people actually give a very in depth and professional answer to a question,Thanks
David H  
#23 Posted : 22 March 2013 20:36:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David H

Latchy - I think you are playing devils advocate here. If its my site - my guys - and I am not happy - they dont do it. I do not come on here and ask someone else to support my argument Regards David
LATCHY  
#24 Posted : 25 March 2013 11:48:28(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
LATCHY

David H wrote:
Latchy - I think you are playing devils advocate here. If its my site - my guys - and I am not happy - they dont do it. I do not come on here and ask someone else to support my argument Regards David How do you learn if you don't ask questions? and certainly I will ask for support and clarity if I am unsure about anything.
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