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davidjohn#1  
#1 Posted : 03 April 2013 22:25:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
davidjohn#1

PASMA is a well reconised certficated body that ensures compentcy to errect scaffold towers. However as brought up in a conversation (not by me) it's not a leagl requirement to have PASMA cert for errecting scaffold towers, other ways of proving compentecy i.e. training on errecting towers from another company/ course provider, work experience, knowledge etc can surffice? But someone today said they are competent to errect scaffold towers and are not PASMA trained, they said they are CMIOSH, CITB trained and been in the game over 20 years, but would all these quals and experience deam him competent even if no actual training in how to errect, operate, and inspect one safely and correctly has not been recieved by that individual?
frankc  
#2 Posted : 04 April 2013 09:54:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
frankc

davidjohn#1 wrote:
PASMA is a well reconised certficated body that ensures compentcy to errect scaffold towers. However as brought up in a conversation (not by me) it's not a leagl requirement to have PASMA cert for errecting scaffold towers, other ways of proving compentecy i.e. training on errecting towers from another company/ course provider, work experience, knowledge etc can surffice? But someone today said they are competent to errect scaffold towers and are not PASMA trained, they said they are CMIOSH, CITB trained and been in the game over 20 years, but would all these quals and experience deam him competent even if no actual training in how to errect, operate, and inspect one safely and correctly has not been recieved by that individual?
Ask him to provide evidence by assembling a tower in line with the requirements of the W@H Regs. See if he starts off with the Manufacturers CURRENT Instruction Manual, checks the condition, compatibility and number of the components. Ask him if he knows the maximum windspeed for working on a freestanding tower, when standard stabilisers should be affixed (and when they should be changed to adjustable ones) The bottom line is some people SPECIALISE in a certain subject (in this case towers) The person you spoke to who was CITB trained (when?) and has achieved CMIOSH may specialise in Asbestos, for example but have a general idea on how to build a tower. Ask him about the 3T method or The Advance Guard Rail system (AGR) Certainly if he has had a recent training on tower assembly by another company, with or without Pasma, that should be sufficient to prove his competence. I deliver Pasma training as required and Alloy Tower training when people only want to comply wth the 'Suitable and Sufficient Training' requirements and also want to keep costs down. The assembly methods are the same on BOTH courses.
boblewis  
#3 Posted : 04 April 2013 11:32:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Frank Knowledge does not prove competence!! Equally the PASMA certificate does not prove competence. I have a PASMA cert issued 10+years ago and I still believe that today I would not be competent to undertake such a role. Competence = Skills, Knowledge, Ability, Training, Experience, Behaviour, Attitudes Bob
David Bannister  
#4 Posted : 04 April 2013 13:22:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Hi DJ1, I am CMIOSH and have been in the H&S game for very many years. I have zero competence in erecting a scaffold tower, although I do still have my NEBOSH notes on scaffolding from 20 years ago.
frankc  
#5 Posted : 04 April 2013 17:52:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
frankc

Bob, according to Pasma, Competence = A combination of Knowledge, Technical Training and Experience. They use the definition of competence as defined by The Advisory Committee For Work at Height Training (ACWAHT) As the person the OP mentioned had initially been CITB trained, and has been 'in the game for 20 years' the line on my previous post where i typed "Certainly if he has had a recent training on tower assembly by another company, with or without Pasma, that should be sufficient to prove his competence." would be enough in my eyes. You'd also be correct in believing you wouldn't be deemed competent as the Pasma card you received would have been invalid for more than 5 years.
boblewis  
#6 Posted : 04 April 2013 18:53:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Frank Mine comes from the HSE - just shows how flexible definitions are:-)
boblewis  
#7 Posted : 04 April 2013 18:54:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

The early PASMA cards, of qwhich I have one, are noit time barred
frankc  
#8 Posted : 04 April 2013 19:21:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
frankc

boblewis wrote:
Frank Mine comes from the HSE - just shows how flexible definitions are:-)
Well as we were talking about Towers, let's go with the PASMA one. :-)
frankc  
#9 Posted : 04 April 2013 19:42:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
frankc

boblewis wrote:
The early PASMA cards, of qwhich I have one, are noit time barred
Not timed barred but invalid. You are correct in your assumption of you not being competent re Towers...but i'm sure you have it in buckets in other subjects. Bob, your card also predates the W@H Regs 2005 and the current safe system of assembly of Mobile Towers.
boblewis  
#10 Posted : 04 April 2013 23:53:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Frank Was really referring to the fact that they are very difficult to erect from a wheelchair:-) even my all terrain one!! - I stopped doing such tasks a number of years ago hence no up to date card. I was really pointing out that the mere statement such as CITB or any other trained means nowt without further detail. I am concerned that a CMIOSH is asserting competence in such a manner as outlined. It leaves me breathless. Bob
alan w houghton  
#11 Posted : 05 April 2013 07:23:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
alan w houghton

If I could throw my two penneth in I am CMIOSH and I have had PASMA training however I am not competent, the guys whom build the towers every day and have been PASMA trained are more than competent. So as Bob has said Competence = Skills, Knowledge, Ability, Training, Experience, Behaviour, Attitudes
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