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Phil43  
#1 Posted : 06 April 2013 10:27:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phil43

I'm having a bit of a debate with some chaps at work. Some of our risk assessments have e.g. welding as a hazard. I think this is acceptable as welding is something with the potential to cause harm. The other school of thinking is that welding should be the risk assessment title and we should have separate risk assessments for; • welding • grinding • using a saw • using an angle grinder etc If we use approach number two, welding would be the risk assessment title, the hazards would be heat, light, fume etc, the risks would be burns, arceye, COPD etc I think separation of all “hazards” will build up a plethora of separate risk assessments, this I believe this is contrary to HSE advice as given in the recent mythbusters case. All feedback and experience of HSE views will be appreciated.
chris.packham  
#2 Posted : 06 April 2013 11:14:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Welding is the task. The hazards are those you describe arising out of the task. A hazard is something where the intrinsic properties can result in damage to health. The risk assessment establishes whether there is a need to take action to prevent this occurring. In the words of the European Agency for Safety and Health at Work: “A risk assessment is nothing more than a careful examination of what, in your work, could cause harm to people, so that you can weigh up whether you have taken enough precautions or should do more to prevent harm.” – Taken from: “Good Practice Information Provided by EU-OSHA”, September 2009. I do get concerned when health and safety practitioners get bogged down in the minutiae of risk assessment and tend to overlook the fact so clearly put in the above definition that the aim is to prevent harm. The risk assessment only tells us if we need to take action. It is the action that is the important aspect. Does it really matter whether we take welding as the title of our risk assessment (and the presumably divide this into the different hazards that arise from the operations described) or break this down into different ‘risk assessments’, provided that at the end of the day we have adequate controls in place to prevent harm? On this basis I take the view that whatever works for you to achieve this aim is acceptable. It is the risk management that we need to ensure we have correct. (Chris now puts his flack jacket and helmet on and disappears into his hole in the ground!)
RayRapp  
#3 Posted : 06 April 2013 21:48:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Phil I suspect the confusion arises because there different types of risk assessments. Chris is correct in that a Task Based RA, welding is the task and you are identifying the hazards which arise from the task ie heat, fumes, light, etc. Task based RAs are in my opinion the easiest way to identify the hazards and moreover, the controls to mitigate those hazards. For example, there may be some tasks which are spread across several groups of workers, hence it will easier to identify the task and to apply your RA to all of them rather than do a separate RA for each group.
Merv  
#4 Posted : 07 April 2013 11:31:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Merv

I think we may be confusing Phil just a bit by not mentioning the definition of the word "risk" which is a combination of the harm which could be caused by the hazard and the likelihood of that harm actually occurring. Thus for a task based Risk Assessment, welding, the hazards; light, heat, fumes etc, would be identified and an assessment of the level of possible harm and the likelihood of that harm arising from each hazard would then be made. The result would then be used in identifying control measures and the priorities of implementation Sunday morning and me brain hurts already Merv
martinw  
#5 Posted : 07 April 2013 16:46:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
martinw

Not meaning to hijack this but something in Chris' post resonates - the 'to prevent harm' thing. It sounds like nothing, but in the 74 Act it is all about SFAIRP and managing the risk. This is the dominant legislation for all future H&S legislation except perhaps European legislation, but that is another story. The trouble is, the Management regs, electricity at work act - so as to prevent danger - and others such as the Work at Height regs(shcedule 6)all say that you must risk assess all danger out of a task - in other words, remove all hazards. People are being prosecuted for not complying with subordinate legislation when the dominant legislation does not require preventing danger, just that you can show that you are managing the risk SFAIRP. How can any risk assessment satisfy both requirements? The preventing danger ideal has leaked into the situation and is now the dominant thing we have to look out for. This leads to more tasks being stopped as you cannot ensure it is safe, such as school trips, as people are scared of getting a kicking in court if an ACCIDENT happens. An accident. But risk assessments in a lot of cases require all risk to be removed so accidents are seen as a failure in the safety system, which means that your risk assessment cannot have been suitable and sufficient. AAARGH! Health and safety legislation and its interpretation and enforcement has itself become an occupational hazard. How the hell did that happen? Lofsted, anyone?
RayRapp  
#6 Posted : 07 April 2013 19:27:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Martin There is no legal requirement to remove all risks, even the HSE preach that removing all risk is neither practicable or desirable. It has been established that a minor accident can have catastrophic consequences and a catastrophic accident can have minor consequences. People are cancelling trips and events because they cannot be bothered with all the hassle of managing it properly i.e. safely - so it's easier to cancel it and blame health and safety. Where an anomaly exists is between the civil and criminal law doctrines. A personal injury lawyer will ask for a risk assessment by default and whatever the activity. If one has been completed then they will argue that the risk has not been correctly identified or managed. It's a no win situation. Criminal law is far more sensible and as a rule only those cases which have fallen below the legal standard which can be expected are prosecuted and rightly so. Notwithstanding the majority of cases where a serious workplace injury has taken place the duty holder has not been prosecuted.
Phil43  
#7 Posted : 07 April 2013 19:56:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phil43

Thanks for the replies. How do we follow the advice given by the mythbusters panel? "the significant risks identified can all be recorded in one overall risk assessment". http://www.hse.gov.uk/my...e140-risk-assessment.htm i.e. complete only one risk assessment? Sounds like we will need quite a few task based risk assessments if we are very specific about our hazards.
Safety Smurf  
#8 Posted : 08 April 2013 09:12:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

Phil43 wrote:
"the significant risks identified can all be recorded in one overall risk assessment".
That is a sound bite. It reads well but it's application is entirely open to interpretation and would differ for everyone. I could lump all my task specific risk assessments into one document and call it one risk assessment but for me it would start an administrative nightmare. Just imagine if one task changed.
A Kurdziel  
#9 Posted : 08 April 2013 09:59:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Safety Smurf wrote:
Phil43 wrote:
"the significant risks identified can all be recorded in one overall risk assessment".
That is a sound bite. It reads well but it's application is entirely open to interpretation and would differ for everyone. I could lump all my task specific risk assessments into one document and call it one risk assessment but for me it would start an administrative nightmare. Just imagine if one task changed.
The idea that all you need is one ‘general risk assessment’ is so much bunk. It is also contradicted by the HSE’s own advice warning people about generic risk assessments. If I was to produce a single ‘general risk assessment ‘for my place of work (we are a lab based organisation) it would be hundreds (thousands?) of pages long. It would take months to write and completely unreadable and impossible to review. It would also be pointless as the only conclusion you could draw from such an assessment was that ‘Yes we are managing all of our risks adequately- nobody would through that exercise only to conclude they were not managing their risks and that they should all go home!
paul reynolds  
#10 Posted : 08 April 2013 12:37:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
paul reynolds

I currently use the task specific Risk Assessment approach, our work involves simple repair and maintenance work and so for us this works well. I have in the past broken RA's in to separate items, however you have an endless supply of RA's that people use interest in and so become ineffective. The workforce who use these task specific assessment say that they are much more user friendly and detail the most important controls, with the others covered by the training that they receive. Regards PaulR
hilary  
#11 Posted : 09 April 2013 08:39:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

I think that how you do your risk assessments is entirely up to you. You don't have to do them either by area or by task but you can use a mixture of the two or some other combination to suit. Welding, generally, is quite an involved task - it is a hazard for sure, but has a lot of associated "stuff" with it - as you say, arc eye, extraction units, electrical safety, gas safety, burns, PPE, etc. So this would be, in my opinion, enough of a subject to create it's own risk assessment. Grinding and using the saw on the other hand, do not have so much involvement and could be assessed by area looking at similar tasks. I think it is a very fluid thing to strike the right balance of what can be easily digested by your target audience. Ultimately, the imparting of information and the training of the staff in identifying the risks and the control measures to take has to be the priority, not whether this is written in one form or another and as long as there is neither too much, nor too little information per risk assessment then I am firmly of the opinion that whatever suits the individual environment is what you should go for.
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