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chris42  
#1 Posted : 07 May 2013 19:09:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I have tried the search feature but only got an error for this, though it probably has been discussed before.

What are peoples opinion on the safety of motorway driving in micro cars as part of someone's work activity. I appreciate the environmental benefits of a micro car, but what do people think about safety. Say driving 120 to 140 miles round trip in a micra or Seat Mii type car. I was thinking about safety if involved in a collision and/ or possible comfort issues and or ability to accelerate away from a problem.

Has anyone seen any sort of guidance or is this just an unwarranted concern ?.

Zimmy  
#2 Posted : 07 May 2013 19:17:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Try ridiing a Enfield 500!

This has raged on and off in the world of learner motorcycles for at least 20years. No power, no brakes and with some good reason as far as I'm concerned. But the truth is we would all have to drive in BIG 4x4's of 32 tonne trucks etc if the logic were applied.

As long as the car is legal as should be the driver then the safety of all is in the hands of the gods.

4x4 come off well if hit by a mini, a mini comes off ok if hit by a motorcycle, a .....
achrn  
#3 Posted : 08 May 2013 11:26:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

It is probably safer than being a pedestrian on a pavement alongside an urban road. Are you going to say no-one is allowed to walk anywhere? All journeys of any length only to be completed in a car weighing at least 1.5 tonnes with at least three air-bags, anti-lock brakes, and a minimum 0-60 time of ...?

Plus, 'accelerate away from a problem' practically never happens. It's a smoke-screen promulgated by people that want a faster car and are desperate for a justification. "I like to pretend I'm a racing driver when I exit roundabouts", while more truthful, apparently isn't sufficient.
hserc  
#4 Posted : 08 May 2013 11:29:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hserc

As an off-the-top-of-my-head-risk-assessment, I would look at the frequency of the driver having to make such longer distance trips, vs their normal expected pattern of use to see which trip type is the most likely in practice. Include what they are likely to be carrying (tools of the trade and materials - job dependent obviously).

If you expect there to be more long distance trips than short, there is a case that the "city" car may be less suitable for many reasons, some of them with H&S relevance.

But all I am indicating is that it may be considered less suitable for the tasks, not unsafe or less safe. Small city or ECO cars and their drivers are likely to be far happier and at their most efficient doing short commutes etc. in a 'city' environment. They are likely to be much less happy or efficient doing more frequent motorway 'thrashes'.

What is the job? Then provide the most suitable equipment for the job.
walker  
#5 Posted : 08 May 2013 11:33:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

I had a clutch "go" and had to nurse the car to the next service station travelling at around 30MPH

I've never been so scared in 40 years on the road

this was on the relatively quiet M69
achrn  
#6 Posted : 08 May 2013 12:29:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

walker wrote:
I had a clutch "go" and had to nurse the car to the next service station travelling at around 30MPH


I don't think anyone is proposing making extensive motorway trips in a car only capable of 30mph. The Micra the original question proposed has a manufacturers quoted top speed of 106mph and teh Seat Mii has between 99 and 106mph (depending on model).
Zimmy  
#7 Posted : 08 May 2013 12:43:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

I think my mate Chris is having a giigle over this one :-)

Chris is after a BMW, no doubt about it...
:-)
Zimmy  
#8 Posted : 08 May 2013 12:44:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

GIGGLE.... ops
chris42  
#9 Posted : 08 May 2013 18:16:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Well Zimmy yes and no. Ok I would not mind driving around in a nicer car ( there is always a nicer one). But I have driven both the above cars in the last few days, and I admit I didn't "feel" terribly safe and that was only 40 miles on the motorway. They did seem quite nippy around town environment, but felt they struggled a bit on motorways.

They both seemed to be adversely affected by cross wind and noticeably slowed down in head wind (more so than my Focus). Changing motorway lanes was more of a challenge, as at 60 mph to change lanes ( not to overtake, but to get off filter lane) from behind a truck, was hard to get to 70 to match the speed of the traffic I was trying to merge into. Probably just need a different driving technique ( certainly a lot more gear changing).

I'm would be happy with a small ish car Astra , ford Focus etc but felt that three trips of 140 miles each per week was not really what these cars were envisaged to do. As noted above more town cars.

I wondered if this feeling of unsafe was just irrational on my part or if others had come across issues. My first car was a mini which I loved (mainly for the freedom it gave), but it was also not so good on the motorway. It would do it, but you could tell it was not impressed.

I don't ride a motorbike anymore, similar feeling of unsafe (mainly due to the other lemmings on the road). I also don't use my HGV1 licence anymore ( in fact the last time was on my test over twenty years ago). So I have a fair bit of driving experience behind me, but feel a little weary of these micro cars.

And no Zimmy I don't want anything too fast, I would like to keep my licence and not be tempted.

Thanks for all the comments, sounds like it is just me then.

Chris


Jake  
#10 Posted : 09 May 2013 11:50:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

achrn wrote:

Plus, 'accelerate away from a problem' practically never happens. It's a smoke-screen promulgated by people that want a faster car and are desperate for a justification. "I like to pretend I'm a racing driver when I exit roundabouts", while more truthful, apparently isn't sufficient.


Have to disagree, but then again I'm biased as a petrolhead.

I've had numerous occasions when I've needed to (and luckily been able to) accelerate away from a problem. Most common example is foreign truckers pulling into your lane having not spotted you. If you've got a car behind it's risky to make a sharp barking manoeuvre, but being to accelerate in front of the trucks trajectory is very useful!

There are myriad other scenarios when power can be useful (but this is not the reason I have a powerful car, but is a benefit).

To answer the OP, as long as the car in question is road legal and can maintain a suitable speed so not to provide an obstruction (i.e. 70mph) then there's no issue in my opinion.
jay  
#11 Posted : 09 May 2013 12:33:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

There is information from ROSPA that you may find useful:-

Choosing Safer Vehicles:-
http://www.rospa.com/roa.../info/safer_vehicles.pdf

Vehicle Safety Advice & Information:-
http://www.rospa.com/roa...formation/vehiclesafety/
Zimmy  
#12 Posted : 09 May 2013 12:45:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Life is strange you know chaps. I love fireblades but would never ride on the back of one these days. I love to fly on/in a microlight but have never and would never get in a jumbo jet. All due to the feeling of being unsafe/safe
achrn  
#13 Posted : 09 May 2013 12:48:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Jake wrote:
achrn wrote:

Plus, 'accelerate away from a problem' practically never happens. It's a smoke-screen promulgated by people that want a faster car and are desperate for a justification. "I like to pretend I'm a racing driver when I exit roundabouts", while more truthful, apparently isn't sufficient.


Have to disagree, but then again I'm biased as a petrolhead.

I've had numerous occasions when I've needed to (and luckily been able to) accelerate away from a problem.


I don't believe you, basically. If you are alongside a foreign truck that suddenly starts to move across into your lane, both of you at motorway speeds, no production car is going to accelerate sufficiently to get you ahead the length of the truck while remaining in your lane.

Your vehicle is (say) 1.9m wide central in a lane 3.6m wide. You start accelerating when the truck hits the white line. You need to advance (say) 15m relative to the truck (I'm assuming your nose is 10m behind its nose and your car is 5m long), in the time the truck moves sideways 0.85m. Let's say you have a generous half a second to do that. s = 0.5 a t^2. So that's an acceleration of 120 m/s^2, or twelve g - four times the peak acceleration of the space shuttle taking off, three times the drag racing quarter mile world record.

Suppose you use the full lane width, so you move sideways 0.85m at the same time, so you get twice as long to pull ahead - now you only need 30 m/s^2, about the same as the space shuttle, merely 11 times greater acceleration than the manufacturer thinks a a 4.4 litre V8 BMW M6 can achieve in 4th (50-75mph in 4.2 seconds).

'Accelerate out of danger' just doesn't happen, though lots of people like to pretend it does In my opinion.
Jane Blunt  
#14 Posted : 09 May 2013 12:51:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

We don't perceive the magnitude of risk to be directly related to the statistics. It is dependent also on how much we feel in control or are actually in control and the benefits. As a result people will quite happily accept the risk when they undertake dangerous sports because they are in control and perceive a benefit (adrenaline,winning, etc) but may not accept a mobile phone mast in the neighbourhood.

There is some interesting research on the subject which is worth seeking out.
Jake  
#15 Posted : 09 May 2013 13:35:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

achrn wrote:
Jake wrote:
achrn wrote:

Plus, 'accelerate away from a problem' practically never happens. It's a smoke-screen promulgated by people that want a faster car and are desperate for a justification. "I like to pretend I'm a racing driver when I exit roundabouts", while more truthful, apparently isn't sufficient.


Have to disagree, but then again I'm biased as a petrolhead.

I've had numerous occasions when I've needed to (and luckily been able to) accelerate away from a problem.


I don't believe you, basically. If you are alongside a foreign truck that suddenly starts to move across into your lane, both of you at motorway speeds, no production car is going to accelerate sufficiently to get you ahead the length of the truck while remaining in your lane.

Your vehicle is (say) 1.9m wide central in a lane 3.6m wide. You start accelerating when the truck hits the white line. You need to advance (say) 15m relative to the truck (I'm assuming your nose is 10m behind its nose and your car is 5m long), in the time the truck moves sideways 0.85m. Let's say you have a generous half a second to do that. s = 0.5 a t^2. So that's an acceleration of 120 m/s^2, or twelve g - four times the peak acceleration of the space shuttle taking off, three times the drag racing quarter mile world record.

Suppose you use the full lane width, so you move sideways 0.85m at the same time, so you get twice as long to pull ahead - now you only need 30 m/s^2, about the same as the space shuttle, merely 11 times greater acceleration than the manufacturer thinks a a 4.4 litre V8 BMW M6 can achieve in 4th (50-75mph in 4.2 seconds).

'Accelerate out of danger' just doesn't happen, though lots of people like to pretend it does In my opinion.


Your calculations are wrong because you are incorrectly assuming pretty much everything you consider! The position of the car, the speed at which the HGV changes lane, when you would start accelerating, available sideways space.

In the example I gave "foreign HGV" my car was roughly level (just behind) the HGVs cab - therefore not a great distance to cover, but in your average car at 70mph the situation would have been ALOT closer / incident would have occurred than what acutally happened.
biker1  
#16 Posted : 09 May 2013 16:54:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

In my experience, as far as comfort goes, the driver space inside a car is not necessarily related to the overall car size. I've driven some 'small' cars that had more space and comfort that much larger vehicles. Rather than focusing on the size of the car, if you are concerned with driver safety, it would be more helpful to check out the crash test rating. It is certainly true that small cars with small engines may not be the best thing to take any distance on a windy motorway, horses for courses, but then again, the Smart car held first place in the figures for speeding offences a while ago, so you never know.
Zimmy  
#17 Posted : 09 May 2013 19:22:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Having ridden motorcycles is side winds on the elevated section of the M4 near Port Talbot without incident for some 44 years on and off (and biker1 would know about this sort of fun), and taken the Royal Enfield to the Ace and back in November storms, the sort of side wind that would make travel in a small car 'unsafe' would have to some wind! You'd have more problems in a lorry.

Regarding acceleration, try a 'Blade or Busa or a 1400RR, now you're talking ;-)

Better still, drive safely x
chris42  
#18 Posted : 09 May 2013 23:35:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

The seven bridge today at about 4:30 was a white knuckle ride (no I was not in the water- well trying hard not to be). Most cars could be seen weaving a bit, but less so in the bigger cars and more so in the smaller ones. I did have to peal my hands off the steering wheel at the toll booth.

I admit that only twice in my 30 years of driving has being able to accelerate out of a problem been necessary. On one occasion I was in the middle lane of the motorway overtaking, when the driver in the lane to the right decided to move into the lane I was in. Their front drivers side wing would have hit the rear passenger side door / wing. There was a vehicle behind and one to my right. They obviously had not seen me and the only place I could move was forward faster.

The feeling of safe is relative I guess, some people don't like spiders. I'm not afraid of the small car, in fact it is fine to drive around town and so easy to park, I could probably pull in forwards do a 3 point turn and drive out forwards (but that is another thread). I guess I'm stuck with it, however uncomfortable I feel.

I know that bit of the M4 zimmy, it is fun on the right day.

chris42  
#19 Posted : 09 May 2013 23:37:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Jay thanks for the links I will have a look at those out of curiosity.
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