Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Asher  
#1 Posted : 10 June 2013 15:08:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Asher

Good Afternoon, I work in a school; we are currently looking to build new sanitary arrangements for both pupil (11-18yo only) and staff use. I am currently being asked whether there are any foreseeable regulatory barriers to placing individual floor to ceiling toilets (each with their own wash hand basins, WC and amenities) within a room for use by both staff and pupils, male and female. According to the school premises regulations this is the stipulation - http://www.legislation.g...999/2/regulation/9/made. Understandably each unit will be is its own room essentially. Can anyone advise of any foreseeable issues with this please?
Asher  
#2 Posted : 10 June 2013 15:10:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Asher

Apologies, I posted the incorrect reference before, here is the correct one... http://www.legislation.g...1999/2/regulation/4/made
chas  
#3 Posted : 10 June 2013 15:15:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chas

I believe you should be referring to the 2012 School Premises Regs not the 99 Regs. The 2012 Regs are worded slightly differently. If my memory is correct the 2012 Regs say washrooms should be for the sole use of pupils. Accessible washrooms can be for pupils or staff members.
Ron Hunter  
#4 Posted : 10 June 2013 22:34:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

I interpret the Regulation you quote as referring specifically to a disabled toilet only. As with many Regulations, the wording is tortuous. Education is not my area and I'm unaware of any companion guidance here? In any event, would the Building Regulations not take precedence?
bob youel  
#5 Posted : 11 June 2013 07:29:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

Forget the rules and regs Common sense says that hormones and young lads are bad enough but put them [the lads and their hormones] in such areas unsupervised* with young girls is inviting problems and all U need is one accusation etc and a persons life is ruined [*I bet that nobody is thinking of supervision]
firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 11 June 2013 09:31:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I see this type of thing in stores lately where there is a line of cubicles, some for ladies, some for men and one for disabled. During busy times they are used by first come first served as no one wants to wait to use the loo. Personally I find it embarrassing to use a loo next to a female who is also on the loo next to me. Not just for me but for her. (Noises, smells etc.) I imagine teaching staff would feel the same when next to a pupil of different sex ??????? Agree with Bob on the supervision point, I remember being at school myself and the toilet was the most popular meeting point.
alistair  
#7 Posted : 11 June 2013 10:36:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
alistair

I work in a school and my interpretation of the Education (School Premises) Regulations 2012 is that toilet and washing facilities must be provided for the sole use of pupils, therefore, staff, visitors, etc cannot share them. The exception is a disabled toilet as this can be used by anyone at the school. Separate toilet facilities must be provided except where the facility is provided in a room that can be secured from the inside and is used by one pupil at a time. We have a large number of buildings of different sizes and this is the case in some of our smaller premises.
chris42  
#8 Posted : 11 June 2013 10:46:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

But is that not what the OP is saying. They are looking at a room with a number of other rooms within it (effectively if it is floor to ceiling), each having a toilet and wash facility. When does a cubicle become a room in its own right?
Invictus  
#9 Posted : 11 June 2013 11:00:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

There maybe no leagl requirement although it does mention this in the workplace regs. for staff. What about child protection and the protection of employees who could be comprimised by young peope making false allegations.
Simon Heesom  
#10 Posted : 11 June 2013 12:39:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Simon Heesom

Recently worked for a PPI company that provided janitorial services to Schools in Scotland and North England, a large proportion of the ones I attended had floor to ceiling unisex cubilcles, with communial hand wash all of which was in a contained room, but the room was also part of the main thorougfare through the school. As well as complying with the education sector requirements, it also complies with the welfare regs. What Alistair says is also correct. S
Ron Hunter  
#11 Posted : 11 June 2013 12:47:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Asher wrote:
I work in a school; we are currently looking to build new sanitary arrangements for both pupil (11-18yo only) and staff .................. within a room for use by both staff and pupils, male and female.
No. Regulation 4 doesn't permit that. You may care to think of them as "rooms within rooms" but that is not the meaning of the Regs.
Asher  
#12 Posted : 12 June 2013 09:55:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Asher

Thanks to everyone for the replies, enlightening and extremely helpful as always.
Graham Bullough  
#13 Posted : 12 June 2013 12:31:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Asher Some years ago one of the secondary schools I worked with introduced a unisex toilet & washroom facility for pupils. It adapted a large long room which had previously been a single sex facility by having a row of WC cubicles along one long side of the room and a line of washbasins on the opposite side. The room was accessible from adjacent corridors at both ends and the original doors were removed from the doorways at each end so that the room effectively became a new corridor containing the facilities. The WC cubicles were modified so that they had full floor to ceiling partitions in order to maintain full privacy for occupants because of foreseeable misbehaviour by some pupils, e.g. throwing items or trying to peer into occupied cubicles. The adaptation was made in response to requests from younger pupils (perhaps through the Pupils' Representative Council) who felt intimidated by a minority of older pupils who used the single sex facilities as breaktime smoking dens or bullied younger pupils. Furthermore, the open-ended corridor format of the new facility discouraged the smokers and made it easier for members of staff (whether male or female) on supervision duty during break times to monitor the facility. As a result the new arrangement proved to be very effective and welcomed by pupils and staff. Pupils who preferred to do so could still use single sex facilities elsewhere in the building. I didn't know about the new facility until it had been completed and it was mentioned to me during a visit to the school, partly because some "bigwigs" from the Government's Dept of Education (and possibly also the local education authority) were getting their metaphorical feathers in a ruffle about whether it was legal or not. My advice based on the Education Premises Regulations at that time was that it was legal and that the school had nothing to fear. I added that if I had known about the adaptations during the planning stage, I would have strongly urged the school to forget the open row of washbasins and instead have one washbasin in each WC cubicle for reasons of better hygiene and privacy. The school's headteacher almost certainly discussed the facility and its success with his counterparts from other schools locally, regionally and perhaps even nationally. This may well have led to other schools introducing similar facilities. As I'm quasi-retired and no longer actively involved with schools, do any forum users know of schools which have introduced such facilities in recent years?
Lisa Boulton  
#14 Posted : 12 June 2013 13:59:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Lisa Boulton

In reply to Mr Bullough a new school built in my town just two years ago have unisex toilets as you describe, floor to ceiling cubicles and a bank of WHB in the middle, and no mirrors. The facility has no main door but is 'open' plan with the main central thoroughfare.
Graham Bullough  
#15 Posted : 12 June 2013 18:14:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Interesting - After my earlier response I did some internet delving about the school to which I referred earlier. It transpires that officials from the Government's Department for Education and Employment (DfEE) - as it was known in 2000 tried to veto the unisex facility when they learned of it. However, the headteacher stood his ground and asked for the school to be allowed a six month trial of the facilities after which the officials could gauge the views of pupils, their parents and staff. The officials agreed and subsequently found the views to be very positive. Ultimately this led to the unisex facility "becoming accepted Government policy ...and also selected as a case study in good design by the Design Council." There's plenty of coverage on various websites about the school and various others which have introduced such facilities, including a wide spectrum of responses ranging from "absolutely disgusting - shouldn't be allowed at any cost." to "why the fuss? - such facilities are commonly provided in various other countries including France and Italy." As an aside, the headteacher involved also provoked another controversy by organising intermittent checks using 'sniffer' dogs to identify pupils bringing illicit drugs into school. The first check identified 2 pupils with cannabis. Various officials opposed the scheme, including one who suggested that the dogs (continually controlled by their expert handlers) might frighten some pupils. Apparently the scheme proved to be effective through frightening any pupils with aspirations of using/selling drugs at school from doing so. Furthermore, over time, various other schools adopted similar schemes and they're now regarded as acceptable by whatever the Government education department is called nowadays!
Zimmy  
#16 Posted : 12 June 2013 19:21:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Bob Y. and Invictus are on the money here. One wrong word, or the suggestion of one, and all hell could break loose.
BJC  
#17 Posted : 13 June 2013 14:24:35(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Since the Equality Act I doubt one can insist on separate WCs as Gay wo/men are just as prone to acts of gross indecency as straight people. I would however object to Teachers sharing the facilities due to the prevalence of recent paedophile prosecutions in that employment sector.
Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.