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paulrs  
#1 Posted : 17 June 2013 17:16:40(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
paulrs

Apologies if this has been discussed before, does anyone else have issues with the handling of these size of weights (using tail lifts) to homes - gravel drives/inclines/kerbs etc with standard pallet trucks. HSE guidelines state more or less that 1000kg takes a pulling force of 20 kg to get it moving, 20kg also being the guideline for a male (we also have female drivers). A lot of home deliveries are not level or flat and we are (unsuprisingly), getting injuries. Aside from reducing the weights, or using powered trucks (both of which we cannot do at this point), any ideas ? Has anyone else had a driver claim for an injury due to this and what was the result ? ( in our case insurance co settled out of court). Thanks.
Ron Hunter  
#2 Posted : 18 June 2013 16:37:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

You're no doubt aware of usual practice of using a hiab to drop palletised or bagged load in the drive or just over the garden wall (and the attendant unaddressed issues of public safety arising!)
I'd be interested as to what type of material /goods you're talking about here?
Steve e ashton  
#3 Posted : 18 June 2013 19:36:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

"...we are (unsurprisingly), getting injuries...". Hmmm... I would absolutely agree it's no surprise. Bulk bags are not designed to be moved in this way - and whoever thought up the notion really does belong in the dock rather than being protected by his insurers' rolling over and paying up. [Although I would suggest that whilst the insurer may well have settled out of court (to avoid having to try and defend the indefensible) that will not be the END result. The end result is liable to be a significant hike in your insurance premiums (and everyone else's too come to think on it...)].
You asked for ideas? Always in my experience, the delivery is by lorry mounted loader, over the fence and no further. If it must go further - that's what shovels wheelbarrows labourers (and sweat) were designed for.. Otherwise, a smaller flat bed truck that can drive to peg before offloading...
Steve
paulrs  
#4 Posted : 18 June 2013 19:44:18(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
paulrs

Hi Ron, those are the bags ! Gravel, sand, ballast, rocks, you name it. I work for a pallet network so these things are bought over the internet and delivered by pallet and it is big business. Really they were designed for FLT and Hiab delivery, and before I started I wouldn't think they were delivered this way but this is reality. We need to work on delivering as safely as possible, hence the question. In an ideal world they would be all handled mechanically, so I would like to hear peoples opinions are on handling 1 tonne bags via tail lift and pallet truck ! Most of the time the customer is expecting a hiab, so more info should be given to the customer for a start.
paulrs  
#5 Posted : 18 June 2013 19:55:13(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
paulrs

Hi Steve, as per my last post I agree entirely, and the bags have lifting loops for a reason, however the volume ( thousands a week) is now such that from a commercial point of view they do not want to lose the work, needless to say the instances of injury are rising, so I am in the middle (as usual) trying to find a balance. Let me say I have only been in this company for 6 months, but these items have been shipped for a number of years, but the relentless influence of the internet and rise in volumes due to it have now brought this handling problem to the fore. I suspect that if one of these cases did get to court (as I said the few so far have settled out of court), then as we are working on HSE guideline limits then we wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
Steve e ashton  
#6 Posted : 18 June 2013 20:10:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

Paul - as I am sure you are aware - the 'guidelines' are intended for hard, level surfaces - not gravel driveways or wobbly cobbles. Anyone attempting to move a small wheel pallet truck on this sort of terrain whilst loaded with close on a ton - IS going to suffer injuries of one sort or another. Sooner rather than later. Way over any sensible 'guideline' values. Simply way over.

If you need to 'prove' it - get a load cell connected between a fork lift and the pallet truck handle and see what effort is REALLY needed to push / pull / steer the damn thing on various 'real life' terrain samples.! But I genuinely do not understand why it should be thought necessary - am I alone in seeing this as an outrageous way of trying to do things?

If the work is that valuable - get your employer to design a purpose built delivery system (Perhaps a (strong) buggy cart pulled by a battery powered caravan shifter?)
Ron Hunter  
#7 Posted : 18 June 2013 23:02:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Sorry Paul, but what you describe is indefensible. Best get out before the HSE get wind of this.
walker  
#8 Posted : 19 June 2013 08:02:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

ron hunter wrote:
Sorry Paul, but what you describe is indefensible. Best get out before the HSE get wind of this.


I have to agree. Hopefully either the insurance company or HSE will knock this on the head before someone's life is ruined.
I sympathise with you (as you say you are in the middle) I suggest you try to get the insurance company involved so its not you delivering the bad news.
paulrs  
#9 Posted : 19 June 2013 08:25:11(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
paulrs

Thanks for confirming what I thought - that this practice is archaic and indefensible. I am 'safe' in a way as I only offer H&S Support /Advice to other companies, on top of what they do themselves - ie I am not the controlling mind, or the responsible person for them. However I can now push with what I knew was right and change the way we work, it was one of those situations where I know I'm right, but so many people don't seem to think the same way, it makes you question yourself. I will not be leaving, this is now a mission. I will change this practice. Strangely enough Ron, the HSE have yesterday contact one of the companies about a riddor - dislocated shoulder whilst pulling a tonne pallet, so this may even be the straw for the camels back. If HSE make a judgement then there is no other option nor excuse.
stuie  
#10 Posted : 19 June 2013 13:05:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stuie

Hi Paul - if you have not done so already do a full MH assessment to back up your thoughts - the tool on the HSE website is good and leads you through the process - you will be supported in your thoughts then by hard evidence.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/msd/mac/
HTH
Stuart
Ron Hunter  
#11 Posted : 19 June 2013 22:14:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

stuart jones wrote:
Hi Paul - if you have not done so already do a full MH assessment to back up your thoughts - the tool on the HSE website is good and leads you through the process - you will be supported in your thoughts then by hard evidence.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/msd/mac/
HTH
Stuart

That would seem pointless. I doubt anyone in authority within the company is going to accept and sign their name to an assessment which concludes a need to 'stop now'?
stuie  
#12 Posted : 20 June 2013 13:20:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stuie

Ron, you know that as I do.
I was always taught to back up with evidence; do the assessment and prove it maybe the powers that be don't (want to?) understand?
Stuart
teh_boy  
#13 Posted : 20 June 2013 16:00:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

steve e ashton wrote:


If you need to 'prove' it - get a load cell connected between a fork lift and the pallet truck handle and see what effort is REALLY needed to push / pull / steer the damn thing on various 'real life' terrain samples.! But I genuinely do not understand why it should be thought necessary - am I alone in seeing this as an outrageous way of trying to do things?


All key points offered already
I just wanted to back up Steve.

I did some load cell calcs in a previous life - here is one example - concrete floor - wheeled barrow (well maintained wheels) - @333.5kg - push to start force = 25 - 35kg on the flat - maxing at 47kg on a slight gradient with a tiny lip!!!

lets take a massive best case - you could be seeing (at best) forces of double that - so 70 - 100kg - is the phrase utter madness acceptable :)
chris42  
#14 Posted : 20 June 2013 16:34:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I'm not surprised they get injured, but I am surprised they actually manage to get any delivery up a drive way. Gravel aside, some tar drives the wheels would just sink into wouldn't they.

So you have some employee built like Guss the gorilla (afraid for their job), pulling a 1 ton weight on a pallet truck, cutting a nice trench as they go or cracking all those nice herring bone pattern bricks.

Wow

When you say you can't use powered trucks, you mean cost too much ? How much is a new drive?
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