Rank: Super forum user 
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I was recently asked by a small glazing company to help them out with new H&S Policy, procedures and to complete a competence questionnaire provided by a main contractor for them.
After looking at the questions I told them that they should provided training records and proof of training in order to gain extra points.
The reply was "we don't have any of that - can't we just make it up?"
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Firesafety,
Small contractors are notoriously bad with paperwork (in my experience). Often though, they can articulate a safe process verbally but fail to document it. Could the small contractor be asking 'can we just schedule the actual training carried out without providing records - as we didn't keep them?'
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Rank: Super forum user
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They were probably serious about 'just making it up' and it goes on a lot in small and big companies! especially come audit time...
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Rank: Super forum user
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I'm sure it does! Just giving them the benefit of doubt - I'm feeling generous today!
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Rank: Super forum user
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I'm hot, have no air con in my office and feeling grumpy so humbug I say
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Rank: Super forum user
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Not the place to be if you're a Penguin ;)
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Sorry you have no aircon - unbearably hot today. I have aircon but I only work part time. Problem is, because I have aircon I want to stay at work!!! that's seriously sad though isn't it ......
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Rank: Super forum user
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Just imagine being so easily led astray by a penguin :-)
I know the contractor does not have training records, he did have some years ago when I did some work for him but so many business and staff changes leave him with none.
I'm now awaiting his response to lots of questions I have put to him before I can complete the questionnaire.
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Rank: Forum user
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A Manager I used to work with had a motto " Make it Happen - Make it up". Morning meetings took place with this mantra. Basically let those interested parties hear what the want to hear, then let them prove what you said was wrong. I didn't think quickly enough for this, so rely on truths. I was made redundant!
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Better option and better mantra: "If you always tell the truth, you won't have to remember so much".
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Rank: Super forum user 
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hilary wrote:Sorry you have no aircon - unbearably hot today. I have aircon but I only work part time. Problem is, because I have aircon I want to stay at work!!! that's seriously sad though isn't it ......
Can't you just take a bucket full home?
On the subject of 'making it up' I completed some work for a small glazing company and although they didn't have training records a lot of the practice's were good, although the bad practices were particularly bad. Working at height they carried out risk assessments etc. but then didn't notice the state of the rungs on ladders etc. I asked them about training and it all comes down to cost. If the goverment are adement about changing the rules then maybe they should be looking at providing a training budget that can be utilised by theses companies.
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Rank: Forum user
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ron hunter wrote:Better option and better mantra: "If you always tell the truth, you won't have to remember so much".
Thanks Ron - I will remeber that - I have the space to do so!
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Mr.Flibble wrote:They were probably serious about 'just making it up' and it goes on a lot in small and big companies! especially come audit time...
Too right Mr Fibble - had many a call over the years asking me that.
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Rank: Forum user
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What's the world coming to when a company actually decides its ok to falsify records rather than undertake what they are legally and morally required to do.
I suppose we all come across this in our profession and hope we don't end up working for one of these numptys.
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Rank: Super forum user
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As qualified at #8: They've done what was legally & morally required, but they've lost the evidence.
There are many of us of a certain age who may have lost our O Grades/ Highers and other School Certificates - and you can't get copies anymore!
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Rank: Super forum user
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ron hunter wrote:As qualified at #8: They've done what was legally & morally required, but they've lost the evidence.
There are many of us of a certain age who may have lost our O Grades/ Highers and other School Certificates - and you can't get copies anymore!
Don't I know it I left school with 27 'O' levels all at the top grade!
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Rank: Super forum user
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ctd167, Classic!
Numpties everywhere :)
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Rank: Super forum user 
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The reality is that many SMEs think like this. Safety to them is getting some boxes ticked with as little effort and cost as possible.
I recall when working as a consultant I visited a French bakery. The proprietor was at pains to explain how he had a wooden oven shipped over from France...blah, blah. Shame I thought he could no be bothered to have a H&S Policy, WRAs, FRAs, etc, for the benefit of the workforce!
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Rank: Forum user
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ron hunter wrote:As qualified at #8: They've done what was legally & morally required, but they've lost the evidence.
There are many of us of a certain age who may have lost our O Grades/ Highers and other School Certificates - and you can't get copies anymore!
Being a scale "E" brat. i.e. having come from a military background I did actually take 18 "O"levels over 2 years. As we moved house 3 times over the exam year and sat 3 exam boards exams.
If you add all the results together and remove the alcohol, as we were living in Cyprus, I was never going to be an academic.
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Rank: Super forum user
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The company in question does not have training records because they have not trained their employees.
As for "hoping we don't end up working for one of these numptys" (cdt167) I'm giving them help and support to get their H&S up to speed, and in future they may have an improved attitude to H&S especially if they see their records help them to gain future contracts.
Work in progress includes a new safety and environment policy for starters.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Most companies, from the very smallest to the very largest, don't keep records for the vast majority of the training that their employees receive. That is because the training is provided 'on the job' and does not involve attending a formal course.
In the case being discussed here I see no need to falsify records of training courses attended. What they need to do is explain how people are trained and supervised whilst learning the job before they deemed competent; and how their on-going competence is managed and developed after they have been deemed competent.
We really have to get away from this idea that training only takes place on a course and that receiving training makes someone competent.
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Rank: Forum user
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Andybz. Good answer - the one I would have posted.
There is an unhealthy obsession that 'training' has to be 'done' - and then certified.
Unfortunately the early 70's authored HSWA uses the 'training' word, although the interpretation within newer standards is 'competency'.
Far more of a challenge to show or articulate 'learning' and 'competency', as paper proof is in short supply for these. For someone good with words, (doing CVs!) putting together a portfolio response is a bit of an effort, but for many running a practical business, just too daunting.
It is time to move away from training towards 'learning' and becoming competent by flexible routes. Don't see much appetite for this amongst SPs.
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Rank: Super forum user
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sadlass wrote:Andybz. Good answer - the one I would have posted.
There is an unhealthy obsession that 'training' has to be 'done' - and then certified.
Unfortunately the early 70's authored HSWA uses the 'training' word, although the interpretation within newer standards is 'competency'.
Far more of a challenge to show or articulate 'learning' and 'competency', as paper proof is in short supply for these. For someone good with words, (doing CVs!) putting together a portfolio response is a bit of an effort, but for many running a practical business, just too daunting.
It is time to move away from training towards 'learning' and becoming competent by flexible routes. Don't see much appetite for this amongst SPs.
All well and good untill a court dismisses anything you say that can't be backed up with a piece of paper - the reality.
I think the majority of safety practitioners agree with your thoughts, but are mindful of protecting the company they work for.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Firesafety101 wrote: The reply was "we don't have any of that - can't we just make it up?"
Groan! You're stuck between a pillar and a post. The pillar in trying to educate them and the post of which you should be walking away from 'cowboys' who give an answer like that.
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