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risk of vicarious liability & alcohol on expenses
Rank: Forum user
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does anyone know of a case where a company was held vicariously liable for an employee involved in a drink drive incident after approving alcohol on the expense form of a company vehicle driver? we have alcohol policies in place with thou shalt not drink drive (even the morning after) but are we condoning it by approving a couple of beers on expenses? If anyone knows of a Crown vs. XXXX that would be great evidence. Thanks
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Rank: Super forum user
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Madib,
Kevin Bridges, who came first in the council election is the man who should be able to answer this for you.
Ciarán
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Rank: Forum user
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Rank: Forum user
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Ciaran,
I'm brand new to the forum. Is there a way I can contact Kevin to ask him? I'm not entirely sure of the "form"!!
thanks
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Rank: Super forum user
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Simple solution really - in every company I've worked for in the past 25 years, you can't claim for alcoholic drinks.
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Rank: Forum user
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Quite agree but in order to get that past the Board really need some evidence that we are leaving ourselves exposed.
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Rank: Forum user
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Personally, I know of no such case, and I'd point out there isn't necessarily a correlation. There remains a culture of allowing alcohol in semi-social sales events, with meals etc etc. In some circumstances. M.P's expenses no doubt contain some entries under the costs of socialising heading..., and just because you approve a bottle of wine with meal expenses at a conference doesn't automatically mean you condone drink-driving. Your policies should protect you.
I guess however that if the expenses claim amounted to half Russia's Vodka production for the month, even the Finance Manager might raise his eyebrows slightly.... Perhaps this is something you quietly monitor.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Madib,
Let it with me and I'll do the honours for you.
Kind Regards,
Ciarán
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Rank: Forum user
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Ciaran,
thanks for the offer but i have discovered the PM option and am already now in contact. As i said very new to all of this!
kind regards,
Madib
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Rank: Super forum user
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Madib,
Kevin just told me. :0)
Once you are happy, that's the main thing. Please feel free to PM me anytime you think that I may be of assistance to you.
Ciarán
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Rank: Super forum user
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Vicarious liability is normally concerned with civil cases. I think you are going to struggle to find such a case, civil or criminal, but happy to be proven wrong.
No, I don't think you are condoning drink driving, but if there is a concern in that respect, then don't allow staff to reclaim for alcohol on expenses; as is the case where I work.
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Rank: New forum user
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Madib,
I would have to agree with Walker. I would be asking the following questions:
*As the cost is submitted as an expense: At the time of purchase is the employee carrying out work duties and therefore under the influence of an intoxicant while at work? If so, could this be understood that the company encourages the consumption of intoxicants while at work?
*As the vehicle is owned by the company: How would an incident impact the group insurance policy and indeed is there a risk that indemnity could be refused?
Fintan.
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Rank: Super forum user
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It's a good question.
I'm no legal eagle but nevertheless I could give it a decent shot.
Vicarious Liability (The doctrine of respondeat superior) is a common law doctrine based on the Tort of Negligence. Hence it is a civil law doctrine as mentioned above and it is quite possible that a vicarious liability could exist in relation to the state of the driver if driving on behalf of the company. That said, I am not aware of any case or precedent in the manner you describe.
Social events and consuming alcohol outside of work time is an accepted part of life - even these days of prescriptive practices. Individuals need to show some restraint and are personally liable under certain prescribed legislation ie Road Traffic Act. I doubt that claiming a couple of beers on expenses constitutes to any reckless or illegal behaviour in itself - thank the Lord.
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Rank: Forum user
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If you're employing people who are looking for an justification or hoping to minimise the implications of drinking and driving, I'd be getting rid of them if I was you. I don't think there can be anybody with a single brain cell in this country who doesn't know that drinking and driving is not only illegal, but morally wrong.
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Rank: Super forum user
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walker wrote:Simple solution really - in every company I've worked for in the past 25 years, you can't claim for alcoholic drinks.
I can claim for alcohol on expenses :)
if I choose to drink drive that would be my problem - I see in no way whatsoever how vicarious liability would apply.
It's in no way linked to my work activity at all,
What did Kevin say? - trouble with PM is we all miss out on the experts answer!
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Rank: Forum user
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I may be wrong (not often) but I thought you cannot be viacriously liable for a criminal offence commited by an employee, you can aid and abet though.
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Rank: Super forum user
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You might not have an accident, but repay meals, refreshments, entertainment expenses etc and HMRC will want to know
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Rank: Super forum user
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talpidae wrote:I may be wrong (not often) but I thought you cannot be viacriously liable for a criminal offence commited by an employee, you can aid and abet
I would tend to agree but it sort of depends on how you look at it. An employer can be held vicariously liable for the criminal act or offence in a subsequent civil action e.g. If a bank clerk defrauds a customer during the course of their work (a criminal act) the bank can and almost certainly will be found liable for compensating the customer.
On the other hand. If a 'minor' goes into a supermarket and buys some cigarettes (underage) I understand that this is a criminal offence, and believe that it is the supermarket who is prosecuted rather than the employee. Arguably this might be seen as being vicariously liable for the offence per se, although it might well be merely a result of the way that the relevant legislation is constructed.
However, I can't help bu think that it would be bordering on 'fantastical' to think that an employer would be found criminally liable for an employees drinking and driving on the basis that they had been able to claim for alcohol on expenses. Being slightly flippant, how would it work? Fred drinks and drives and gets caught, John the managing director gets the driving ban?
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Rank: Forum user
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Hi Madib
I don't know of any case but it does sound a big leap for a judge to take.
I buy you a drink in the pub.
You crash the next day, subsequently the police find you were well over the legal maximum blood alcohol limit. They look at your phone and there is a text from you to me "chrrs BIg lad yrr mee bst mate furr byin me all zemm brewskis"
Its my fault because I condone the consumption of alcohol during the working week?
Nahh.
Jeff
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Rank: Super forum user
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You can imagine what would come next :-
"But the company drove me to drink"
Just look at the pastime activities in the members section, a significant amount of drinking and martial arts (hitting things).
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risk of vicarious liability & alcohol on expenses
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