Can anyone offer a definitive purpose that these so called competence cards serve. As far as I can see they only prove a person is competent to pass a test and not to perform a given role to a specific standard. I am trying to come up with a topic for a university dissertation and this is one subject that keeps coming back to me. I recently with no previous relevant construction experience passed the managers test with 3/4 days reading of a question book, so that led me to believe the scheme is pointless. Surely there must be another way to prove competence i.e. a minimum NVQ or other relevant qualification level (inc proof level has been attained) or a generic safety test (practical) for non qualified persons. Your thoughts are gratefully appreciated

Oh, and to sit the manager's test you already have to have NVQ's or be a member of an institution e.g. IOSH and then to go on and get the CITB card you have to be in CPD, and this has to be confirmed in writing (on the form) by someone on a higher level in IOSH, so I had to get a CMIOSH colleague to do that for me.

JohnW

See also:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr877.pdf

I commend the whole report to you. Page 15 gives the context for my previous post here.

John

Someone has been having you over all you need to do is book the test Managers, Supervisors or Operatives pass it then move on to the difficult bit getting a card.

That then needs someone to sign some piece of paper to say what colour ,grade of card you should get.

Sorry it is money spinning but as it requires some thought to Health and Safety not completely pointless.

Ta Alex

As Rodger says; it was a good idea with noble intentions, but was ruined by bureaucracy and greed.

I made no reference to the actual H&S test procedure. It is "robust" checking everything except your inside leg measurements.

What I would say about the on-line booking procedure is that is exceedingly difficult to operate and nowhere near as simple and user friendly as it used to be. (I believe you deserve to be issued with a card just for completing the application!).

I am aware that a number of people who were in possession of a "Blue" skilled card who, when it came time for renewal, did not have an NVQ level 2 so therefore their employer applied for a "Green" Construction Site Operative card. The employer received a phone call from CSCS pointing this fact out and asking if they would like a "Blue" card.

Not looking a gift horse in the mouth, the offer was accepted, and the cards were issued.

Rodger Ker

Thank you all for your responses, as expected divided but valid opinions.

The purpose of the standard test is to measure the candidates awareness of construction site activities, hazards and general procedures to avoid danger on-site. However, this is not the basis for which the CSCS card solely exists. The card will indicate which trade and level of experience and/or qualifications the owner has achieved - an indication of competence that can be quickly confirmed and recorded. This can only be achieved through NVQ/SVQ - else a Graduate/Visitors card etc. may be requested instead. True competence however, is not revealed by the card! Therein lies the problem of ignorance and abuse.


There is no requirement for an NVQ in order to sit the general site safety tests, or MAP test. Evidence of having passed these should really be sufficient for entry to site, though CITB would rather you pay £30 for a CSCS card!


NVQ are the standard for vocational competence. A CSCS card is really just charging people to use that medium to record that fact. Ignorance and laziness within construction means sites would rather you just produce a nice little card, rather than a bunch of documents.

@JohnW
There should have been no requirement for you to have a black managers card. Your client should have had at least a supervisor level member of the team with a gold card. I assume your role did not involve any specialist technical knowledge of how to install the roofing system.

Gilmour,


And in my case I have already produced the documents to my CMIOSH colleague who signed the application form. So, I don't need to carry documents around with me.



The team does have gold card holders. I have to have the managers card as I do not supervise the roof work. The roofing system is not my knowledge. My purpose is to assess how they are getting materials and persons to the roof location, and how will they ensure a safe system of work.

JohnW

Edited by moderator 15 August 2013 09:57:52(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Think that about sums up the implementation of the scheme on site, and inconsistent issue of cards too !

Many principal contractors, big and small, don't seem to apply the CSCS concept properly. I would have expected that a PQP / Graduate / Visitor card would have been sufficient to perform a health and safety consultant function on site. Black cards are for construction managers and site managers - not for trades supervisors working under a main contractor who themselves provide site management functions.

@John M
NEBOSH, degrees or any other non-construction skills will not be considered for competency assessment for CSCS. The scheme is for vocational construction skills - manual or managerial - that have been gained through experience that can be demonstrated by achievement of NVQs. Academic achievement is not a practical demonstration of competence. Proof of experience and academic qualifications in the relevant construction related discipline will also prove competence. Else, it is the graduate, PQP or visitor route.

There is no MAP card. Only the MAP test required for occupation specific supervisory and management cards.

CSCS really needs to address the issues faced by so many of you guys who are H&S advisors/practitioners needing to access sites for consultancy based exercises. You have my sympathies.

No. H&S consultants should need the manager/professional card, they are doing inspections and may find themselves in hazardous locations, after all they are doing risk assessments. I often find myself walking onto a work at height area with no edge protection, or into a dusty area with no ventilation - basically I'm there to find hazards that may not have the necessary controls.



Not just managers. It is the MAP card, P for professional, it's a card for professional persons who don't fit in the other categories e.g. H&S consultants. Gosh, we still answering the original poster's questions!


JohnW

Edited by moderator 15 August 2013 10:00:52(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Duncan, without detailed knowledge of these roofing projects I can see you would have concerns trying to imagine the circumstances. I am working with a very skilled team. I'm not conducting risk assessments alone. These are done WITH the team supervisor(s).

My main concern is ensuring materials and persons get safely to the work location and ensuring edge protection is in place at all times - these materials could be small domes, large arches or 6 metres roof lights. One of the concerns is always that the Principal Contractor has not provided the necessary controls or some change has occurred in the project that my client is unaware of e.g. they've built a wall across their access route or they took down an important bit of scaffolding. Very basic/obvious changes to a CPP, leading to breaches of WAHR, are often overlooked by PC's.

Anyway, we've answered the original poster's questions, haven't we? :0/


JohnW

Thanks Duncan, it can be quite a challenge getting cross-examined on this forum. And at 20 metres up it's quite a challenge persuading some PC's and contractors that obvious WAH hazards exist!

Cheers,
JohnW

If he is a Manager then the MAP card (Black one) is wholly appropriate. More and more major contractors are insisting upon it.

Jon

No, it is not the appropriate card, because he isn't a construction site manager. The black card is for people managing construction full-time. It's for site agents, site managers, not general professionals who happen to turn up on site - though that is the way it used to (wrongly) be used. This was explicitly stated on the page http://www.cscs.uk.com/types-of-cards but that page has 'helpfully' been removed now, and the replacement is uselessly woolly.

Black card is not the right card for a safety professional who is there "to assess how they are getting materials and persons to the roof location, and how will they ensure a safe system of work." PQP is the right card.

Rodgers comment [ It may be a mandatory requirement to possess a CSCS card before you can access a MCG site, however, it does not need to be the correct card!] is so very true. Part of the problem within the industry is the transient "Labour Only" work force, every time we start a new gang off they come with either:-

1. No Card
2. A Green Basic Site Skills Card, not a tradesman card.
3. A letter stating they have passed the touch screen test only but not applied for a card. The letter is
invariably out of date as they are only valid for two years.

In an ideal world we would not use these gangs, however it would not be long before we had no LOSC prepared to work for us. It is not until the whole of the UKCG actually enforce their own rules correctly and only allow operatives with the correct card to carry out works on site.

I have a Black "Senior Construction H & S Manager" Card. As I am employed full time for a Construction SME who predominantly work for Principal Contractors that are members of the UKCG, I believe I have the right card for me.

Have a good weekend

Clive

I wouldn't be too quick to believe what they've told you. The red card is for "if you can provide evidence of current registration with a further/higher education college or university for a nationally recognised construction related qualification." I too would doubt that chemistry is a construction related qualification.

It would be the first time CSCS has provided bogus advice. We once got a whole batch of application forms back with red scrawl on them claiming we'd used the wrong form to apply for the wrong card, and actually we'd done it right - it was the scrawler that was wrong (as they admitted, but only after a load of aggro).

I agree that black card is not right, but I don't think red card is right either. If you don't qualify for PQP, I think you need the visitor card. Unfortunately, that's a different test...

All the cards have equal H&S standing.

Apologies for jumping in here but I do disagree with the posts stating that the black card is inappropriate. It is very difficult through a forum to understand someone's job role. As I am sure that many of us 'health and safety professionals' have found, when someone describes something on a site going wrong on site, it is only a minor detail that can change the whole situation from bad to worse. The same principals apply to John W. If perhaps we visited Johns workplace, maybe out 'forum contributes' opinions would be different'.

If I work as a construction health and safety manager then I am a manager right? So from visiting the CSCS site it states:


(Black Card)

This card is available for manager occupations subject to:

achievement of NVQ/SVQ levels 4, 5, (or QCF Level 6 or 7) in the relevant occupation
This card is valid for five years
All applicants must pass the CITB Managers and Professionals Health, Safety and Environment Test.

If I was not a construction manager then I would apply for the white card as I would only be visiting intermittently:

This card is available to competence assessed members of CSCS approved Professional Bodies

This card is valid for five years

All applicants must pass the CITB Managers and Professionals Health, Safety and Environment Test.

I am confused with the verbal sparing on this spread? Surely the process is quite simple.

With regards to the benefits or purpose of the scheme, I am unsure why a Health and Safety forum need to explain this as it is fully detailed on the CSCS website:

http://www.cscs.uk.com/s...benefits/for-cardholders

Lastly, with regards to JohnW`s card situation. I had a similar problem and was advised that the CSCS system only FULLY recognizes NVQs (or its equivalent). I completed the NVQ level 5 and was awarded (after completing the tests for managers category) a black card. Hope this helps you with your quest!

Black card is for full-time site-based managers of construction. It is not for all managers (or all people with management in their title) who are working within the construction industry or who visit site occasionally. As such, from the information provided in the thread ("so that I can accompany my client's team of roof workers onto large building sites in order to get access to the work at height locations before their work starts, to do inspections and risk assessments with them") I still believe black card is not appropriate card in this instance.

If the qualifications are on the list, PQP is appropriate. Otherwise, 'Visitor' is the easiest option, because it avoids trying to navigate CSCS's arcane rules.

They used to have the documents spelling this sort of thing out visible on the web site, but they've all disappeared over the course of some years.

jarsmith83,

I don't 'qualify' for the Black card as my NEBOSH cert is just NVQ3, somewhere along the way I missed that initially.

When I was first browsing the CSCS website, a photo of a red card saying 'Graduate' just did not attract my attention as I am not a graduate of construction or civil engineering, so I did not click for further info. My clients thought I should have the black card, but they'll be happy with what CSCS give me.

The card names, descriptions, occupations, qualifications need a tidy up I think, and the navigation of the site needs improving. There is supposed to be a page for cscs.uk.com/occupations but it does not open (I told the lady).

JohnW