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Apart from your mistake JohnW I totally agree with your view regarding black card. The silver card used to be for technician level 3 and black for 4 or above (NVQ). The completely white card used to be white with yellow strip. This is the way that I see it and I had the very first CSCS and worked my way through them. I didn't go through the professional membership route (using my CMIOSH status) as I was advised that my NVQ had more clout with regard to level of card given. Perhaps for the small additional fee it would be well worth JohnW for you to complete the NVQ and gain the black card regardless. "Roll with the times" I say :-)
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The colour matters not!
It is a "passport" to site - no more - no less.
The CCNSG card (the old Scats card) is becoming more and more of a requirement on engineering sites - with some car factories and warehousing outfits insisting upon a valid card.
There is a also a new chap on the block - an ACE card. See link below.
http://www.ccnsg.com
Jon
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So all we need now is a couple of Jokers - sorry I couldn't resist.
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The ACE card has been around for quite a while
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Hi Guys.
I was at an HSE run seminar on Wednesday 04/09. There were three guest speakers including the HSE Ch. Inspector of Construction and the Vice Dean of the School of Building from Glasgow Caledonian University.
The emphasis was on not what title you hold, but can you 'walk the talk'. The CSCS card was highlighted as nothing more than an 'access to site card'. Thereafter there was a big push on the SSMTS card scheme which is more skills based and becoming more and more the standard for competence.
Hope this helps.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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quote=gerrym]Hi Guys.
I was at an HSE run seminar on Wednesday 04/09. There were three guest speakers including the HSE Ch. Inspector of Construction and the Vice Dean of the School of Building from Glasgow Caledonian University.
The emphasis was on not what title you hold, but can you 'walk the talk'. The CSCS card was highlighted as nothing more than an 'access to site card'. Thereafter there was a big push on the SSMTS card scheme which is more skills based and becoming more and more the standard for competence.
Hope this helps.
If the colour of the card is of no consequence then why not just issue only one type/colour of card? Save a lot of bureaucracy and angst IMO.
Incidentally, I passed my CSCS test back in 2008 and was issued with a platinum card. I believe the platinum card no longer exists - I wonder what colour card I will be issued with next year? The suspense is killing me!
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Rayrapp wrote:
If the colour of the card is of no consequence then why not just issue only one type/colour of card? Save a lot of bureaucracy and angst IMO.
It's of no consequence with respect to the health and safety 'competence'. They all have equal H&S standing.
It is potentially of consequence if you are using the scheme to monitor or record skills.
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to me the answer to the original question was very simple !
( no card no job or access to the site for our working out team ) i sat the test and couldent believe that some of our guys actually failed ! but it demonstated to me the need for such a scheme.
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gerrym wrote:The CSCS card was highlighted as nothing more than an 'access to site card'.
Rayrapp wrote:If the colour of the card is of no consequence then why not just issue only one type/colour of card? Save a lot of bureaucracy and angst IMO.
The whole point of the colour card system (or what SHOULD be the point) is it (should) indicate what you are qualified to do on the site.
I've said umpteen times on this thread that I need access to site to do WAH assessments on some rather large buildings/roofs. Clearly the PC would not be impressed if I walked in with a yellow visitor's card or a red card that said 'trainee'.
OK I won't get the black card, but rather oddly I'll get a red card that says Graduate. (I hope it doesn't say Chemistry graduate on the back). I will let you know what it says on the back (but I think you'll have to wait 6 weeks).
To get on site meantime I have to take on site my 'pass' letter which says I took the test for 'Managers and Professionals' - and it says I answered all questions correctly :0)
JohnW
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In the eyes of the law and/or the HSE it demontrates a minimum level of competence.
See appendix 4 of the cdm regs.
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JohnW wrote: Clearly the PC would not be impressed if I walked in with a yellow visitor's card or a red card that said 'trainee'.
Your 'clearly' is false.
The visitor card is such a wide catch-all that he'd be a fool to assume it indicated less experience than a 'graduate' card, which is a short-term card with limited renewal opportunity, and is a trainee card by another name. All the red cards are short-term cards and all but the trainee have limited renewals (or no renewals) allowed.
We have many highly experienced, highly qualified people on visitor cards. People with (most) overseas degrees, anyone with a specialism CSCS don't recognise (geologist, for example). 'Visitor' doesn't indicate less experience than 'graduate', since a visitor card does not preclude significant experience, but the 'graduate' card does.
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I would say my 'clearly' is not false. As you imply, the yellow Visitor's Card is for people who may frequently visit a construction site, but have no construction specific skill.
The red Graduate Card is available, or intended to be, if you have completed a nationally recognised construction-related qualification with a further/higher education college or university. Also holders will have passed the CITB Managers and Professionals HS&E Test (the most difficult and wide-ranging of the tests)
So the graduate card implies knowledge and you can also make your experience known to a PC or client with regard to what you want to do on site.
The Graduate Card is valid for three years and can be renewed for three years on application.
JohnW
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Ah, apparently my NEBOSH Gen Cert is not a 'nationally recognised construction-related qualification' (I don't have the Construction part). So now I'm not going to get the red Graduate card either.
Just when I thought I'd have to opt for the yellow Visitor's Card the post man this morning brought me a GREEN Construction Operative Card!
So me, the lowly TechIOSH safety advisor, is an operative :o)
The back of the card says 'Construction Site Operative Industry Accreditation'.
Basically I don't have any construction qualifications; a good few years of experience and good knowledge/application of CDM,WAHR etc., but no construction qualifications.
Anyway, hopefully, got a card, get on site, do risk assessments!!
But maybe I should think again about doing any CDM-C work, weekly scaffold inspections, site toolbox talks........ or sit a few exams!
John
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JohnW wrote:A
Just when I thought I'd have to opt for the yellow Visitor's Card the post man this morning brought me a GREEN Construction Operative Card!
I thought you said you'd done the 'management and professional' test? A green card is supposed to require the 'operatives' test.
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achrn wrote:
I thought you said you'd done the 'management and professional' test? A green card is supposed to require the 'operatives' test.
That's right achrn. The PQP test covers all the sections that are in operatives test as well as the management and CDM, I recall having questions on tools, plumbing, electricity as well as the usual vehicles, scaffolding, accident reporting etc., so by passing the PQP test I have passed the operatives test?
JohnW
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Sorry achrn, I did not mean PQP, I sat the 'Test for Managers and Professionals. So my response should have been:
That's right achrn. The for Managers and Professionals covers all the sections that are in operatives test as well as the management and CDM, I recall having questions on tools, plumbing, electricity as well as the usual vehicles, scaffolding, accident reporting etc., so by passing the Test for Managers and Professionals I have passed the operatives test?
JohnW
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I'm wondering why CSCS send my cheque back. Maybe the fee I paid for the test included the £30 card?
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Issuing the Green Site Operatives Card to a H & S Person is a joke and IMO just re-iterates that the whole system has been "at best" poorly managed by CSCS/CITB or whatever name they are using this week.
The initial idea behind the scheme was good and had it been administered correctly years ago and enforced correctly by all in construction it may have worked. Sadly like most things H & S we seem to pay lip service and pretend everything is alright when clearly it is not.
As far as I am concerned it is a dead donkey that CSCS/CITB need to get rid of.
Rant over!
Have a good weekend.
Clive
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JohnW wrote:As one of the defenders on this thread, of the CSCS card system, I feel I should give an update, despite some embarrassment....
I stated above that as a safety consultant I'd applied for a Black Professional/Manager card having sat and passed the appropriate CITB test. Six weeks later !!! just had the cheque returned to me. I should apply for a Red Graduate card.....
JohnW
Well JohnW,
no embarassment should be necessary. I too have a Red card. Mine is a Technical, Supervisory & Management (Trainee) card. This was deemed appropriate for me by CSCS because I don't have NVQs (to level level 5) to support the application for Black. Not even degree, or HND in construction disciplines and management will get this (normally!).
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JohnW wrote:
That's right achrn. The for Managers and Professionals covers all the sections that are in operatives test as well as the management and CDM, I recall having questions on tools, plumbing, electricity as well as the usual vehicles, scaffolding, accident reporting etc., so by passing the Test for Managers and Professionals I have passed the operatives test?
The two tests have different question sets. Passing the MAP test has not (in general) counted as a pass of the operative test, and we've had cases of people being told they can't have a visitor card because they sat the wrong test - when they've done MAP and the card requires operative.
The system is a mess, badly operated.
Notwithstanding that, the best fit for what you say you are doing is the visitor card, which does not carry with it any implication of either ignorance or inexperience.
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achrn wrote:
The system is a mess, badly operated.
Notwithstanding that, the best fit for what you say you are doing is the visitor card, which does not carry with it any implication of either ignorance or inexperience.
Yes, I came to that conclusion and was just about to try and apply for the Visitor's card when the Green card arrived in the post.
So, what's done is done, I've certainly changed my mind about the system since first posting on this thread :o)
JohnW
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JohnW wrote:Ah, apparently my NEBOSH Gen Cert is not a 'nationally recognised construction-related qualification' (I don't have the Construction part). So now I'm not going to get the red Graduate card either.
Just when I thought I'd have to opt for the yellow Visitor's Card the post man this morning brought me a GREEN Construction Operative Card!
So me, the lowly TechIOSH safety advisor, is an operative :o)
John
JohnW,
don't fret. Probably the best thing for you to do is attend the ConstructionSkills SMSTS week long course. This is the course CSCS will be looking at more so than your NEBOSH, regardless if it's a Construction Cert. The Site Management Safety Training Scheme will be very, very easy for you.
Don't get down by the "my card is better than your card" issue. Those who run good sites only engage competent people. A CSCS card will be that last "measure of competency" they will consider. They will know how competent you are by your job title, role and any certification you give them before they allow you onto their site. Don't be put off by not having a CSCS card which details your official job description. Nobody will be judging you.
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Thanks G X.
I wasn't getting 'down' about the Green card, just curious that CSCS 'decided' that it was the card for me. When I looked down this page http://www.cscs.uk.com/cscs-cards/types-of-card I never considered clicking the Green 'Find Out More'.
JohnW
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GX good answer to it. I am not defending or attacking the CSCS system.
Couple with the SMSTS Nebosh, Tech Iosh and various other safety courses without a Safety related NVQ you get the red trainees card. So what,s in a colour. Now I am really clever and have completed my NVQ I will get Grad Iosh and another colour of CSCS card (hooray) I have had cards for the last 13 years of various colours and been asked for a card once in that time. This is going on site as a Safety Person not to work, We can moan about the colour of the cards what colour qualifications should get you but we just have to get on with it.
Good luck Jw
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Thanks Alex. The saga continues. I phoned CSCS to say I thought the Green Card was not appropriate - the lady agreed! Seems the green card was sent out as that was what the test company had recommended!!!
As I am TechIOSH she has offered me a Red Trainee Card as you, and GX also, indicated above, the Technical, Supervisory & Management (Trainee) card.
Hmmm, I am currently not training for anything.
John
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The problem i find with CSCS is that all the different types of CSCS cards, as well as the affiliated schemes, confuse people who perhaps don't deal in H&S for a living.
As an example, we had an electrical contractor arrive on one of our sites and all four electricians had the green operatives cards. I advised that these were no good as all they told me were that the guys had passed a simple touchscreen H&S test and not that the guys were qualified electricians.
When i spoke to their boss it transpired that they all had CSCS affiliated JIB ECS cards but that they thought they also needed a CSCS card!? I've come across similar issues with scaffolds having both CISRS & CSCS and plant ops holding CPCS & CSCS.
In my personal opinion, until there is one, legally required, all encompassing card scheme where electrician's cards say "ELECTRICIAN" and bricklayers cards say "BRICKLAYER", with all their various training (scaffold towers, MEWPs etc) either printed on the back or held on a chip, these card schemes will always cause confusion.
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stern wrote:The problem i find with CSCS is that all the different types of CSCS cards, as well as the affiliated schemes, confuse people who perhaps don't deal in H&S for a living.
In my personal opinion, until there is one, legally required, all encompassing card scheme where electrician's cards say "ELECTRICIAN" and bricklayers cards say "BRICKLAYER", with all their various training (scaffold towers, MEWPs etc) either printed on the back or held on a chip, these card schemes will always cause confusion.
Re: your first point stern - certainly from my perspective & additionally judging by some of the postings so far, all is not clear to those who actually do deal in H&S for a living.
Your second point is absolutely spot on.
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Stern
Spot On.
Mobile Crane Operator CPCS
Slinger/Signaller CPCS
Lift Supervisor CSCS
Appointed Person Lifting Operations CSCS
This is a clear progression field from Crane Op to AP so why the change of card.(Within the Lifting Industry)
I am going to a CSCS Road Show in October and have already submitted the questions as above I will get an answer but will it be what is required. I will keep you posted.
These Road show's are taking place throughout the UK so go on the CSCS site and hunt them out. Last year they were informative but still waiting for the same answers to my questions above from the road show.
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Our (electricians cards-ECS- lean towards electricity (yes yes not hard to see why) but...
The CSCS card is a dam sight better than nothing. It gets you onto the site, a site that if the rest of us 'so called' pros are doing our job right, is as safe as we can make it so the people entering the place need not be as up-to-speed as we nice safety folks and, by definition, should not need to be.
Our J.I.B. cards show our qualifications on the flip side of our quite gorgeous faces.
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Zimmy
Bearing a CSCS of whatever hue does not guarantee "getting you on to site" - far from it. An increasing number of electro/mechanical sites will not recognise the CSCS card at all and are insisting on the CCNSG card (issued by the ECITB).
Power Stations , Refineries and other heavy industries refer. Only last week I was asked to produce my CCNSG card before a visit to a power plant. When I produced it together with my paid up GMB (Union) card all details were recorded and checked before further entry was allowed.
It could be the case that the Trades Union on the site were particularly vigilant - which I commend.
Jon
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Rank: Super forum user
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Rank: Super forum user
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My card is BLACK. I also have the magic letters of IOSH.
No reference to Black card in the previous link
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