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Martin50  
#1 Posted : 13 September 2013 20:36:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Martin50

I have a very old property dating back to the 18th century. During office hours my employee is a lone worker 9 till 5. The employee lives in a flat above the office. On the first floor is the kitchen and living room, on the second floor is the bedroom. The stair cases are old wooden and a dog leg that twist round. The treds are worn and want to throw you forward. The employee is a compulsive hoarder, with huge amounts of books, knitting items and other items. There is very little open space in the living areas. The premises have an automatic fire alarm. I am getting this upgraded to include a smoke detector in the kitchen, and on the landing of the bedroom on the 2nd floor. The carpet on the stairs has a big hole caused by a cat. I am getting the carpet replaced. There is only one means of escape through the front door of the office. The rear of the property is enclosed. The property is on a high street, with wine bars, pubs, and all that you see on a high street. The employee has lived there for over ten years. My concern is that if someone was to put a fag end in the letter box of the front door and cause a fire in the office, there is no way out of the property. I think the travel distance from the bedroom on the 2nd floor down the old stairs and through the front door is probably more than 18 metres, maybe 20 metres or more. The employee has been instructed to deal with the issue of hoarding and has been offered support. But seems unable to sort out the problem of a huge amount of combustible items. is the risk to life acceptable or unacceptable? I am concerned that the fire risk assessment would be deemed as not suitable or sufficient, and in the event of an arson attack or fire, maybe even a charge of cooperate manslaughter. the human problem is that the employee has been there for over 10 years and sees this problem as an unwelcome attack rather than a genuine fire risk problem. Any help out there please? There are no fire doors in the property and fire would rip very quickly throughout.
mssy  
#2 Posted : 13 September 2013 22:25:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

Firstly, buying smoke detectors and putting one in a kitchen is not really going to help. The rate of false activations may be so high, that it makes the system useless This sounds as if the flat on the first & second floor is accessed through the office. Is this correct, or does the flat have it's own front door to the street (or corridor to the street). As the Responsible person (re the office), you do need to provide a suitable & sufficient FRA for your commercial space. The RA must consider the residents safety too. However, anything past the residents front door is covered by UK fire legislation, so I am not sure you can do much about getting them to tidy up. So get a FRA completed - perhaps by using a consultant - and get your tenant (employee) to contact you local fire service who will (upon request) provide advice to the tenant re fire safety. The fire service have no powers of entry into residential for community fire safety checks, neither can they enforce any provision on the resident in their home Good luck
Martin50  
#3 Posted : 14 September 2013 09:47:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Martin50

Yes the access is through the commercial property. The stairs to the flat come out at the bottom of the office. The employer is also the landlord of the tenant employee, so is responsible for the fire safety of the tenant. The Fire Risk assessment considers the escape route to a final place of safety. I have always worked on getting to safety with 2 and half minutes and a maximum distance of 18 meters.
Graham Bullough  
#4 Posted : 14 September 2013 10:28:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Martin50 In relation to the foreseeable risk of someone putting a lit cigarette end through the letter box slot of the front door of the ground floor office, have you considered affixing a proprietary air-tight metal receptacle to the inside of the door? This ought to contain any lit end and help prevent it causing a fire in the property, especially if the floor inside the door is carpeted and/or combustibles e.g. advertising leaflets, get pushed through the letter box slot outside normal working hours. However, I'm just working on basic principles about fire prevention & control, so hope that more knowledgeable forum users can comment on the efficacy or otherwise of the type of receptacle I've suggested.
Canopener  
#5 Posted : 14 September 2013 13:18:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Didn't we discuss this very same thing a few (maybe a few more) weeks ago?
mssy  
#6 Posted : 14 September 2013 16:41:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

Graham Bullough wrote:
Martin50 In relation to the foreseeable risk of someone putting a lit cigarette end through the letter box slot of the front door of the ground floor office, have you considered affixing a proprietary air-tight metal receptacle to the inside of the door? ..............
But what is the risk? I carried out an enforcement visit to the anonymous looking building in Westminster where the traffic wardens slide off to for a cuppa. It was a four storey single staircase office building and was the local offices for the company providing the parking enforcement for this busy west end of London area. I asked whether they had considered arson through the letterbox as I would suggest that a traffic warden 'nest' would be high risk. They hadn't. Compare this with an identical building four doors away that was a marketing company and you can see that just because the building is single staircase, the may not present the same risk of an arson fire It's a fire risk assessment - to quantify and reduce risk. If there's already a low risk, there's often no need to do anything
firesafety101  
#7 Posted : 15 September 2013 16:19:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

In my opinion you need to fire risk assess as normal but also consider the occupant of the flat whose access is via a single door between the office and staircase. Ensure provision of a fire door with self closing device and in good state of repair so as to provide at least half hour but recommend one hour fire separation. Ensure the ceiling and other adjoining walls/floors are also in good state of repair so that fire/smoke etc. cannot travel from ground floor to first floor. Especially the under stairs as the stairs are wooden and sounds like they are ready to ignite at the signs of the first spark? Provide an audible alarm to sound in the flat in case of a fire on ground floor. I agree to get guidance from the local frs to the flat occupant, if the fire safety officer pays a visit they may offer further advice regarding the above.
bob youel  
#8 Posted : 16 September 2013 08:17:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

I advise that U obtain the services of a competent [not a person who spent their sole time in the service as purely tender crew but was also a proper fire safety officer as well or suitable H&S adviser ] person to assist U
kevkel  
#9 Posted : 16 September 2013 09:18:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
kevkel

canopener wrote:
Didn't we discuss this very same thing a few (maybe a few more) weeks ago?
I was reading down and thoughts of Deja Vu were forming!
Mick Noonan  
#10 Posted : 16 September 2013 10:33:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mick Noonan

If I'm readying this right you are both the employer and the landlord to this person. The building is therefor your responsiblity also and from what you've said I imagine you have inherited this situation. The tenant has to allow you to view the property (within reason) and where necessary, make changes. Sounds like you also need to get a structural engineer in to have a look at the building itself.
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