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FlashingBlade  
#1 Posted : 16 September 2013 09:41:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
FlashingBlade

Morning all, I have a meeting today with one of our Directors to discuss the future structure of H&S within the workplace and I think I know what their proposal is going to be... We're a multi site production operation and employ between 100 and 300 people at each site; I think the Directors medium to long term aim is to make the site managers responsible for the day-to-day management of H&S at each site (accident investigation, risk assessment etc). From my own experience this only works if there is still someone in a H&S Officer (for example) position at each site pulling the strings and coordinating activities. Otherwise as soon as the pressure gets applied from a production perspective, safety paperwork is the first thing that gets sacrificed. I'm going to argue that there still needs to be someone in a H&S position at each site, even if its of a lower qualification level and supported by myself, but I would welcome the views and experiences of others. Thanks
PIKEMAN  
#2 Posted : 16 September 2013 10:56:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PIKEMAN

I am going to disagree here. Your assertion that without a safety officer on site then safety will be 2nd best to production only works if the safety culture allows it. If the organisation puts a very high priority on safety, then the problem won't arise. The senior management will expect the managers at each site to be responsible, with a proper management system with audits etc in place, giving measurable performance indicators. I can give you an example - I went to work as a contractor on Du Pont site (having worked at ICI for some time) and was amazed to find out how few H&S staff they had. However - all managers (in fact all staff) were resoinsible for safety, and were held accountable, and had training etc. It worked!
NLivesey  
#3 Posted : 16 September 2013 11:34:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NLivesey

FB, you're right to consider this as a potential issue as the degree of responsibility taken on by line managers will be dependant on the wider culture within your organisation. The danger with the proposed path your company is taking is that managers will suddenly be given safety responsibilities without having a reasonable understanding of what those responsibilities include. Du Pont has an almost legendary reputation when it comes of H&S but the path to being able to have a sustainable safety organisation on that par would have been the result of a lot of work to develop the foundation so that they could rely on their management organisation. Manager's should have the responsibility that you think will be recomended anyway, the real question is what would be needed to get from where you are now to a point where that system would work effectively.
Jake  
#4 Posted : 16 September 2013 12:10:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

OP, I would support your directors proposal wholeheartedly as long as there is suitable "back office" arrangements in place (resource, training, development, oversight). In my opinion HSSE is best managed by the line with HSSE professional involvement with creating a developing the systems and processes and for an advice line for complex problems. A good example (in addition to Du Pont) is one of the UK retailers who across their group employ in excess of 50,000 persons but their dedicated HSSE team is 5 or so strong!! (and works very effectively with local management managing H&S well).
Jake  
#5 Posted : 16 September 2013 12:12:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

ETA: could this not be looked as evolution rather than devolution?!
FlashingBlade  
#6 Posted : 16 September 2013 12:13:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
FlashingBlade

I agree that it can work if people are trained and managed effectively, but in the real world just how often does that happen? My concern would be that who would be actively monitoring that the things people are saying as done actually are done and closed of adequately. For example if the engineering manager becomes responsible for ensuring all LOLER inspections are completed and actions closed off, who would be monitoring this and driving it? Its unlikely the engineering managers superior would have a full awareness of what is actually required and my concern would be that the only time you'd identify a failure is when an incident occurs that draws attention to the fact. You could support this via an internal auditing program with managers auditing each others areas of control but these auditors would have to be trained and experienced to a considerable level which I dont think would happen. And then there's the fact that they're main reason for employment is to control production and I think the element of time management and conflict of interests arises.
jennygb  
#7 Posted : 16 September 2013 13:05:29(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
jennygb

I inspect premises under HASAW and this rarely works. Firstly a suitable level of health and safety training is required, which is not usually the case - if the site manager had the training he/she would probably be practising H&S! Secondly, employers forget that when they delegate responsibilities they need to ensure that the person has the TIME to do the task, this never happens. Site managers are expected to 'fit it in'. Thirdly sufficient audits are required to ensure all persons with responsibilities are undertaking them adequately, if the responsibility of H&S has been passed to the site managers, it is usual to reduce the number of H&S managers, as a result there is not enough left to audit. It is usually a downhill process from here, unfortunately .
Jake  
#8 Posted : 16 September 2013 13:16:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

jennygb wrote:
I inspect premises under HASAW and this rarely works. Firstly a suitable level of health and safety training is required, which is not usually the case - if the site manager had the training he/she would probably be practising H&S! Secondly, employers forget that when they delegate responsibilities they need to ensure that the person has the TIME to do the task, this never happens. Site managers are expected to 'fit it in'. Thirdly sufficient audits are required to ensure all persons with responsibilities are undertaking them adequately, if the responsibility of H&S has been passed to the site managers, it is usual to reduce the number of H&S managers, as a result there is not enough left to audit. It is usually a downhill process from here, unfortunately .
Whilst I agree that there is a risk that all of what you say could happen, I don't share your cynicisms that this risk is evident in all workplaces, as I've seen it work in practice (in a number of organisations). If the culture is right, if the board level commitment is there and if Managers are given suitable resource (time, training etc.) I’d go as far to state that this is the most effective method to manage HSSE, as you have absolute engagement and ownership and H&S isn’t just palmed off to something "that department" deal with. Clearly you experience a majority of poor performing organisations, which may well be a reflection on the typical employer in the UK I see no reason to state to the OP that their organisation will go down that route, after all the poorer performing organisations would just make the change and tell people retrospectively!
Clairel  
#9 Posted : 16 September 2013 14:07:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

jennygb wrote:
I inspect premises under HASAW and this rarely works. Firstly a suitable level of health and safety training is required, which is not usually the case - if the site manager had the training he/she would probably be practising H&S! Secondly, employers forget that when they delegate responsibilities they need to ensure that the person has the TIME to do the task, this never happens. Site managers are expected to 'fit it in'. Thirdly sufficient audits are required to ensure all persons with responsibilities are undertaking them adequately, if the responsibility of H&S has been passed to the site managers, it is usual to reduce the number of H&S managers, as a result there is not enough left to audit. It is usually a downhill process from here, unfortunately .
Jeez, what world do you live in? Obviously one where text book models of H&S management MUST be adhered to and health and safety could only ever be effectively managed by health and safety professionals. So back in the real world. In answer to the original post, my advice would be that if change is going to happen then it is going to happen. Better to compromise and have an input into those changes than refuse to accept any changes and consequentially end up being left out of the process altogether. Health and safety can effectively be managed at a site level by a non-health and safety professional as long as they understand what is expected of them. In fact one could argue that is better that someone understands the production pressures and can therefore accommodate them. In my experience there are too many in-house (and external) health and safety professionals who refuse to see the importance of a productive work force sticking doggedly to the mantra that health and safety is THE most important thing. It's not. Because if the company doesn't make money there will be no business. There has to be a balance. So that's my advice. Help find a balance.
Mr.Flibble  
#10 Posted : 16 September 2013 14:25:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mr.Flibble

Health & Safety should be managed at site level by the Managers. They should be doing the accident investigations, audits, risk assessments, writing the safe systems of work etc. They should own it, they should do it. That's the blue sky scenario to have on any site. As long as i'm around it can be pushed to me, if im not around then they have to do it, which is the case on a smaller site I also cover and works well. They even do inductions and issue PTW! Heck they even review risk assessments after an accident! It would mean putting myself out of a job, but then I would just become a consultant ;)
Clairel  
#11 Posted : 16 September 2013 14:31:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Mr.Flibble wrote:
but then I would just become a consultant ;)
JUST??? It's amazing how many people think it's easy to JUST become a consultant.
Mr.Flibble  
#12 Posted : 16 September 2013 14:40:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mr.Flibble

I'm taking the micky Claire, I've been one twice usually when I have enough of company Red Tape. But then I get sick of spending my life going round the M25, and go back again.
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