Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
bluefingers  
#1 Posted : 28 September 2013 17:19:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bluefingers

We have had air monitoring carried out in our factory by an occupational hygienist. The method used was drawing air samples through a gastic pump. The factory is a fabrication facility carrying out welding and oxy-propane cutting of heavy steel plate. The results were alarming, in that the oxygen readings were 23% in the welding areas and 25% in the profiling areas. There is no ventilation in the factory, nor is there any fume extraction.
The Works Director refuses to accept the results and has been taking his own readings using a personal gas monitor, which does not show the same concentration of oxygen, clearly because it is not the correct instrument to measure the oxygen levels.
What is the technical explanation for using a gastic pump, and why will the personal gas monitor give inaccurate readings?
Sweep  
#2 Posted : 28 September 2013 17:51:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Sweep

Alarming.

The fact that there is no ventilation in the factory is concerning as all entering the area are completely dependant on RPE. Any failure of the RPE will lead to exposure to fume.

The gas monitor you mention may not be suitable to take general atmospheric readings when determining control measures. They are desinged to be worn on the chest to monitor the air in the breathing zone. They can be hung on the wall near the worker but are supplimental to personal monitors worn on the lapel.

If a personal monitor is used to take general atmospheric readings they can be fitted with a hose and aspirator to draw in air from a larger area. This may give a slightly different set of results. There could be numerous reasons for the different set of readings. The personal monitor used could be out of callibration.
The activity undertaken at the time the works director took their readings may have been different from the hygeinist.
I would suggest that more sampling is carried out - certianly to measure the potential exposure to welding fume.

I would suggest that without any form of ventilation while carrying out welding activities monitoring the atmosphere is too little too late.

JJ Prendergast  
#3 Posted : 28 September 2013 20:43:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JJ Prendergast

It is of some concern that you appear to have an oxygen enriched atmosphere.

SOunds like you need to check your oxygen bottles and pipes for leaks

Is the higher concentration in a very localised / confined area?

In a typical fabrication shop, with normal air movement, doors opening etc - in my experience its difficult to get an oxygen enriched atmosphere

I would check the calibration/accuracy of the instruments used so far.

Investigate as you are increasing your fire risk with an oxygen enriched atmosphere.

Oils and greases in the area are not adviseable

http://www.bcga.co.uk/pr.../publications/SL0205.pdf

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hse8.pdf
bluefingers  
#4 Posted : 28 September 2013 20:53:23(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bluefingers

I am sure that the enriched atmosphere comes from the profile burners as they use an oxygen jet to cut through the molten metal, and this oxygen is not burned up during the process. Ventilation would improve the dispersion of the enriched atmosphere, but the company won't invest in it. All workplaces should be ventilated (welfare regs), and especially where the atmosphere is altered during a production process. The occ. hygienist used calibrated equipment to take her readings, my concern is that the company are trying to manufacture results to avoid installing ventilation. I have revised the fire risk assessment to reflect the information. My head is hurting with the repeated impact against the wall.
Thanks for the response.
IanS  
#5 Posted : 30 September 2013 11:09:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
IanS

I assume the Gastek pump is drawing the air through an indicating tube that needs to be read off to provide the answer? If this is so, they are inherently subjective and therefore not a precision test. Also the tubes are one-off and cannnot be individually calibrated in the workplace.

The personal monitor on the other hand can easily be calibrated using outside fresh air, taken into the workplace where many readings can be taken and then back into the fresh air for re-check. For my money, the personal monitor is the way to go.

That doesn't preclude the possible need for LEV or other controls against fume exposure!
redken  
#6 Posted : 30 September 2013 11:19:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
redken

Bluefingers. wise words from Ians. Also it would interesting to know what comments the Occupational Hygienist made about the high oxygen concentrations.
raleigh-eepa  
#7 Posted : 30 September 2013 11:22:57(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
raleigh-eepa

what is oxy-propane cutting????

do you mean oxy-acetelyne?
bluefingers  
#8 Posted : 30 September 2013 12:11:25(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bluefingers

Oxy propane cutting is almost identical to oxy acetylene cutting, we use propane as it is cheaper than acetylene. Most of the equipment is identical but the cutting nozzles are slightly different. The hygienist commented that the lack of ventilation could be the reason for the increased concentration.
The air sampling was carried out in accordance with the HSE guidance MDHS 70 'General methods for sampling airborne gases and vapours'. I think there must be a technical reason why a personal gas monitor is not used because it would be a really simple way of taking samples. Out of interest, I will ask the occ. hygienist to explain the reasons and I will post on here.
David Borland  
#9 Posted : 30 September 2013 13:19:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
David Borland

Looking at your recent posts it looks like you have your work cut out there!

I don't see why a decent, calibrated personal gas monitor would give inaccurate results but it would need to be sampling at the same area and time as the other system to produce comparable results. If your manager is just walking through the workshop he isn't really getting a representative sample. If the monitor has datalogging you could place it in a work area for a full shift to get an idea of what you are dealing with followed by spot samples at "problem areas".

The concentration levels do appear to be very high so don't know if there are enclosed or confined areas in your workshop where there are localised hazard areas and these would be the focus in terms of designing this out.

Another thing is that this (suspected) hazard is transportable as work clothes can become "saturated" with 02 and remain flammable for a considerable period of time after leaving the problem area. Hanging them in fresh air does the trick.

Should the methodology, rational and conclusions not be part of the Occ Hygienists report? Just wondering why management can dismiss the findings as they obviously cannot peer review it.

Good luck.

Davie


bluefingers  
#10 Posted : 30 September 2013 13:27:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bluefingers

I have just had a response form the occ. hygienist regarding the use of the personal gas monitors. He informs me that these monitors give an instant reading, and therefore can be hit or miss, whereas the correct method of sampling is to measure the oxygen levels over a period of 5-10 minutes in a location to give a more accurate result. He is working out on site today but he said he is going to send me some more information be email when he is back in the office.
IanS  
#11 Posted : 01 October 2013 12:43:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
IanS

But a personal monitor left in place and monitored for the "5 - 10 minutes" will effectively take a representative sample and will also indicate peaks and troughs in concentration. If your occ hygenist is finding an average of 25% O2, I would be very worried about the higher concentrations that would contribute to that average.

The other advantage of an electronic monitor is that the instantaneous readout will help identify sources of the O2 by showing localised high readings.

There is one more thing you can do and that is to calculate how much volume of O2 from the cylinder would be needed to give the suspected enrichment in your unventilated room - I would guess it would be one hell of a lot.
johnmurray  
#12 Posted : 01 October 2013 12:54:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

What ?
Oxygen enrichment in the area of flame cutting is a fact of life.
23%. Whoopee. I've known of over 30% in closed flame-cutting bays.
More to the point, what was the fume content ?
Size of airborn particles and what was present in them...
Useful things, like the amount of respirable particles etc ...
bluefingers  
#13 Posted : 01 October 2013 13:18:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bluefingers

Thanks for all the responses guys, but this thread seems to have gone off topic. There is a guidance issued by the HSE (MDHS 70), and the Gastec pump is one of the methods used to measure airbrne gases and vapours. The personal gas monitor, although technically able to measure oxygen content, is not a recognised method and the readings that it produced would not be a reliable foundation for a risk assessment.
The oxygen measurement was only part of the occ. hygienist's remit as we measured ozone, weld fumes, respiritable particles etc.. I was asking so that I could put a valid argument to my Works Director over his choice of measuring equipment.
Incidentally, the factory has an internal volume of 156,000 cubic metres. Thanks again for all the comments and help.
IanS  
#14 Posted : 01 October 2013 15:30:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
IanS

Sorry to belabour the point but the OP did query O2 measurement and I know of no method in MDHS 70 for its measurement. A personal meter with its attendant ease of calibration and ability to identify localised concentrations is perfectly acceptable for risk assessment purposes.

Also bear in mind that MDHS 70 was published in 1990.

Several of the posts have mentioned that O2 concentration is not the be all and end all of the determination of the need for LEV etc. so to dismiss them as being off topic is somewhat insulting. If you are happy with your occ. hygenist's views why ask on an open forum?
bluefingers  
#15 Posted : 01 October 2013 15:37:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bluefingers

Ians
You seemed to miss the point of my original post. We have already accepted that there is a need for LEV to remove the welding fumes in the factory. This wasn't the question that I was asking. I was asking;
'What is the technical explanation for using a gastic pump, and why will the personal gas monitor give inaccurate readings?'.
Lets just leave it there please, I havent insulted anyone deliberately, and if anyone is, then please accept my apologies.
Subject closed for me now.

johnmurray  
#16 Posted : 01 October 2013 19:04:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

What were the carbon monoxide levels ?
And how long has the plant operated with no LEV ?
RPE is not supposed to be the sole means of reducing pollutants.
I would also be interested in the operators respiratory efficiencies, one supposes you have health surveillance operating since you have welding as an operation ?
Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.