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fearghalg  
#1 Posted : 01 October 2013 19:20:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fearghalg

Good evening all, I have recently taken up a position with a new company. They have no asbestos surveys done yet so there is no management surrounding asbestos yet. I have already raised my concerns with management regarding this matter. We recently had a contractors in carrying out works on refrigeration units. They were working in a cavity space where asbestos roofing is located but were never made aware that there was asbestos in that area. They continued carrying out their work for two weeks and never made anybody aware. I received a call from the contractors managers to inform me that the workers had removed a sample of dust from the working area for testing. The sample has come back as positive for crystallite. I did receive MSDS for the work which highlighted the risk of asbestos and that if it was presumed that asbestos was present that work would cease immediately and management informed. However the contractors continued their work in the area and worked elsewhere for a week. On return to their office they handed in a dust sample raising their concerns. What am I to do now? Is this reportable as a RIDDOR dangerous occurrence? Your thoughts and guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Ron Hunter  
#2 Posted : 01 October 2013 19:27:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

You mean chrysotile? Have you seen a copy of the analytical report? You need to be taking appropriate samples (and air samples/ swabs) in the are they worked in and get some competent advice from and analyst. And your new Company needs a wake up call!!! You can't report to HSE on hearsay.
fearghalg  
#3 Posted : 01 October 2013 19:39:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fearghalg

Hi Ron, Yes chrysotile. All I have seen was the result of the sample tested by the contractor company. They had the sample sent off to a specialist lab for testing. They have told me that they are informing their insurance company so this has caused a major panic on site. Would I be better of getting an analyst out asap to take the appropriate samples? I will then organise for a full survey in the very near future. I know I have no definitive answers as to whether they were actually exposed but the were working in that cavity area where asbestos is present. Should I still inform the HSE by means of RIDDOR - dangerous occurance. Thanks
paulw71  
#4 Posted : 02 October 2013 12:34:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paulw71

Fearghalg. I would suggest that the employer of the contractors in question should report this. While I totally agree with Ron with regards to your organisations asbestos managment procedures (or lack of) I would also suggest that there has also been a failure on the part of your contractor. While there is a legal duty for your organisation to provide relevant asbestos info to contractors who are working in the vicinity of the asbestos. There are also obligations on the contractors employer to make sufficient enquiries as to the possible presence of ACM`s as well as making sure that their employees have had suitable asbestos awareness training proportionate to their job role in order to identify potential hazardous ACM`s. If the dust sample that was taken was found to contain asbestos that would suggest that the source material is damaged in someway and has potentially contaminated the surrounding areas Have the areas in question sampled as soon as possible to find the extent of any potential contamination and the condition of the ACM`s present and this should inform you as to any required remediation required in the areas.
djupnorth  
#5 Posted : 02 October 2013 13:03:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
djupnorth

Fearghalg, The answer to your question is no, the matter is not a specified dangerous occurrence under RIDDOR and it is therefore not reportable as such. DJ
paulw71  
#6 Posted : 02 October 2013 13:31:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paulw71

djupnorth wrote:
Fearghalg, The answer to your question is no, the matter is not a specified dangerous occurrence under RIDDOR and it is therefore not reportable as such. DJ
I am afraid that is incorrect. It is specified as a dangerous occurence and covered in riddor under " The unplanned release of a hazardous subtance that has the potential to cause injury."
SP900308  
#7 Posted : 02 October 2013 13:45:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SP900308

'I have recently taken up a position with a new company. They have no asbestos surveys done yet so there is no management surrounding asbestos yet. I have already raised my concerns with management regarding this matter' What was their excuse for this? It's not like the requirement to manage came in last year! What was your predecessor doing (supposing they had one)? Shocking story but rife out there and not just in the Private Sector I'm afraid! Maybe prosecution will give the company a big 'wake up' call, although I doubt it. The contractor should also be prosecuted based on the info in this thread. Highlights well the challenges that face us all.
jay  
#8 Posted : 02 October 2013 14:45:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

For RIDDOR Reporting, refer to FAQ's on HSE Asbestos Guidance Webpage:- "When does inadvertent exposure to asbestos constitute a reportable incident under RIDDOR?" http://www.hse.gov.uk/as...tute-reportable-incident
jay  
#9 Posted : 02 October 2013 14:53:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Obviously, RIDDOR 95 has been replaced by RIDDOR 2013, but there is a similar requirement in RIDDOR 2013 as a dangerous occurence. i.e. "Hazardous escapes of substances 27. The unintentional release or escape of any substance which could cause personal injury to any person other than through the combustion of flammable liquids or gases."
djupnorth  
#10 Posted : 03 October 2013 12:43:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
djupnorth

Paulw71, My humble appologies I did not explain my answer properly. You may well be correct (and I suspect you are) but when considering whether or not something is reportable to the HSE, you can't simply say that the presence of asbestos dust equals a reportable incident. The key will be whether or not a) there was a release or escape of the ACM; b) the release was "accidental" (as opposed to deliberate); and c) the release was in sufficient quantities to cause death, major injury or any other damage to health. Again, I would say that you are probably right and the matter is reportable, but we should go though the steps to ensure we are providing appropriate advice. Sorry for the confusion and thank you for correcting me. Regards. DJ
fairlieg  
#11 Posted : 03 October 2013 14:36:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fairlieg

paulw71 wrote:
Fearghalg. I would suggest that the employer of the contractors in question should report this. ...........
Are you sure? Dangerous Occurrence, Premise controller reports?
paulw71  
#12 Posted : 03 October 2013 15:10:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paulw71

fairlieg wrote:
paulw71 wrote:
Fearghalg. I would suggest that the employer of the contractors in question should report this. ...........
Are you sure? Dangerous Occurrence, Premise controller reports?
Yes quite sure When quoting requirements of regulations why cherry pick the only part that suits. It states that duty to report rests the controller of the premises and /or the employer of the parties in question (in this case the employer of the contractors) Whilst I agree that the premises occupier/controller would have a duty to report I would suggest that the employer of the workers who may have been exposed to asbestos also has a duty.
paulw71  
#13 Posted : 03 October 2013 15:34:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paulw71

djupnorth wrote:
Paulw71, My humble appologies I did not explain my answer properly. You may well be correct (and I suspect you are) but when considering whether or not something is reportable to the HSE, you can't simply say that the presence of asbestos dust equals a reportable incident. The key will be whether or not a) there was a release or escape of the ACM; b) the release was "accidental" (as opposed to deliberate); and c) the release was in sufficient quantities to cause death, major injury or any other damage to health. Again, I would say that you are probably right and the matter is reportable, but we should go though the steps to ensure we are providing appropriate advice. Sorry for the confusion and thank you for correcting me. Regards. DJ
I am sorry but I dont really get your point. You advised the following was not reportable. Contractors exposed to asbestos after working in a location that was known to contain asbestos containing material. No asbestos register was provided prior to works. No asbestos survey was undertaken prior to works. A sample post works was taken and found to contain asbestos fibres which would then assume that workers clothing could be contaminated and could have spread to various locations leading to further exposure. Asbestos fibres released into the air. (as samples found in dust its a safe bet) Accidental or deliberate (dont really get your point here as they could have entered an area and bashed hell out of some insulation board and then said "oh sorry didnt know thats what it was") There is a duty to for employers to make suitable and sufficient enquiries to ascertain the presence of asbestos to protect their workers. This was not done. Was the release was sufficient to cause death, majory injury or damage to health. Well seeing as its asbestos we may have to wait 30 + years to find out. If you consider this to be not reportable then thats fine. I suppose we all have a different way of interpreting the requirements of regulations and the purpose they are there to serve.
fairlieg  
#14 Posted : 03 October 2013 15:51:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fairlieg

paulw71 wrote:
fairlieg wrote:
paulw71 wrote:
Fearghalg. I would suggest that the employer of the contractors in question should report this. ...........
Are you sure? Dangerous Occurrence, Premise controller reports?
Yes quite sure When quoting requirements of regulations why cherry pick the only part that suits. It states that duty to report rests the controller of the premises and /or the employer of the parties in question (in this case the employer of the contractors)
I wasn't cherry picking the HSE were "An employer or person in control of premises If you are an employer If you are an employer, you must report any work-related deaths, and certain work-related injuries, cases of disease, and near misses involving your employees wherever they are working. If you are in control of premises, If you are in control of premises, you must report any work-related deaths, certain injuries to members of the public and self-employed people on your premises, and dangerous occurrences (some near miss incidents) that occur on your premises." But your right I really should read the entirety of the regulations in question properly before posting such ridiculous questions based on a quick search for guidance from the HSE website. Self ban from posting for another 8 years
paulw71  
#15 Posted : 03 October 2013 15:54:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paulw71

I give up. I just cannot be bothered.
firesafety101  
#16 Posted : 03 October 2013 21:09:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

You said "They were working in a cavity space where asbestos roofing is located" Did you know this area had damage to the roofing? I would be asking how they managed to get a sample of dust if there was only asbestos roofing in that area? Who gave them permission to take samples, causing damage to your property? I know you need to get the cart back behind the horse regarding asbestos surveys but they went OTT and should have reported their suspicions to you so you could arrange the tests.
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