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bigbishywah  
#1 Posted : 04 October 2013 12:20:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bigbishywah

I'm currently conducting a First Aid Needs Assessment and I have discovered a number of diabetics on the site both type 1 & 2. I think that our FA room should be equipped with a Blood Glucose Level test kit in order to ascertain whether to call for the professionals in the event of a worker going hyper or hypoglycemic? My thinking is that its easy to raise a low reading and not so easy to lower one without insulin etc Has anyone got any experience of this and would I be breaking any laws if I implemented this?
Canopener  
#2 Posted : 04 October 2013 12:35:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

I don't personally see the need. Most people who suffer from diabetes will already have a kit (I have 2 one at work and one at home) and will generally (but I accept not always) be able to tell whether they are approaching a hypo and take the necessary action themselves. Finger pricker systems vary and many use a cartridge that should not normally be shared. What you might do is to understand the differences in symptoms between hypos and hypers and use that as an indication of what you might need to do. Most people who suffer from diabetes where there may be a reasonable risk of a hypo/hyper, will normally let their immediate colleagues know the symptoms and what they should do. I can't see that you're likely to break a law by merely have a meter per se, although you might if you take any incorrect action as a result of using one.. I really don't see the need for your first aid room to hold such a device.
Redders  
#3 Posted : 07 October 2013 09:50:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Redders

I agree with canopener. Using a glucose meter to determine an intervention becomes clinical practice rather than first aid. Any user or potential user would have to be trained in the use of the instrument and interpretation of results. Other issues that need to be included would be ongoing quality control, external quality assurance, record keeping, etc. Further guidance can be obtained from the MHRA. I don't think that you'd be breaking the law in having a glucose meter but you would be going against established guidance. I would recommend that you do not go down this route.
sach  
#4 Posted : 07 October 2013 10:43:07(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
sach

I personally feel that gluco-meter should be recommended in First Aid clinic, if you have number Diabetic employees.It could be lifesaving. Firstly Its quiet handy, User friendly, doesnt require medical knowledge to interprete result, It doesnt require prescription to use. In Diabetes the low sugar level (Hypoglyceamia) is most dangerous and can be cause of fatality, but is reversible if acknowledged earlier, this is were glucometer comes in. Non diabetic employee can also suffer from Low glucose level and which is second common cause of fatigue, restlessness after Dehydration. The negative part of the glucometer is the cost, the machine is cheap but the strips are expensive, secondly you will also need to look to dispose the lancet in sharp container and lastly misuse. But advantages outweighs the disadvantages in multitude
AndyMak  
#5 Posted : 07 October 2013 11:35:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
AndyMak

Don't see teh problem in having one with test strips available, wehave had incidents where people have forgotten their kit and then gone hypo. However you would need to get the patient to use it rather than a first aider, and then the first aider would act accordingly in line with the wishes of the patient. Someone who is unwell from low sugar would most likely improve if something sweet were given, but someone with high sugar would not necessarily be made significantly more unwell by giving the same treatment..... So perhaps teh answer is for first aiders to be allocated something like a mars bar..... As happened at one of my previous employers. Obviously first aiders should be made aware of the signs and symptoms and Diabetes.co.uk have plenty of advice that can be used.
firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 07 October 2013 16:01:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

IMHO you should risk assess all diabetics individually as you would a wheelchair user or other disabled employee. The individuals themselves are best placed to provide details of their condition/s and what they do to monitor and control. Bear in mind the information is confidential and they do not have to provide. I'm type 2 and if you prick my finger I just might sue for assault if I have not given permission. If you do go down that road make sure you have plentiful supply of prickers and sharps container. As I say I am type 2 and never had a problem, I know someone who takes Insulin and does have problems so it it those that you should worry about more. By the way my 10 year old dog was diagnosed diabetes on Friday and we started injecting him today. Poor Scooby .................
andybz  
#7 Posted : 07 October 2013 18:23:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
andybz

My son has managed his Type 1 (insulin dependant) diabetes at school with minimal support since he was about 9. I think most adults in the workplace would be even more able to cope. It appears to me that you are trying to control a risk that does not really exist. If a diabetic needs to monitor their sugar levels closely they will take their own meter to work. Obviously they could forget it , but that will not necessarily lead to their blood sugar levels becoming dangerous. This idea that low or high levels can be fatal is technically true, but the likelihood is very low. Low blood sugar is very unlikely to be fatal, and Mars Bars are not a good treatment for hypo glycaemia (glucose tablets and gels are much better). High blood glucose can lead to keto acidosis, which can be fatal, but the person is likely to very unwell before. Ultimately, the response to a diabetic being unwell at work would be to get them to test using their own meter and treat themselves. If they are too ill to do this call an ambulance.
RussT  
#8 Posted : 07 October 2013 18:25:52(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
RussT

A first-aider testing blood glucose (or worse administering insulin!) would be exceeding their remit as a first aider - such actions are not included in any FAW or EFAW training. They would put themselves and their employer in an uncomfortable position if the employee decided to commence a claim Treatment for a hypo (low blood sugar) by giving a sugary drink or helping the employee take Glucogel IS however included within first aid training and would be part of a first-aiders remit. Remember that Glucogel should NOT be squirted into the mouth of an unconscious casualty! (as it may obstruct the airway). IMO - keeping a BG tester is unnecessary. Diabetics would generally be expected to manage their conditions themselves. Risk-assessing all diabetics is over the top and intrusive I feel - how do you prevent someone from skipping a meal?! or not taking their insulin/metformin? What do you do if someone refuses to answer your questions? Providing you have adequate first-aiders in place [to deal with an unlikely hypo] you will be fine. What we do is ask employees to let us know if they have any conditions they may need assistance with (remember they do not have to give this information as Firesafety says). IF they are happy for us to do so, this information is shared with the first aiders at their location. HR ask this during the induction process and keep the employees consent on file (typically just an email). I'm a type 1 diabetic and am on Insulin, I keep a tube of Glucogel on my desk and in my bag/car should I have a hypo. I would be not be happy with one of our first aiders sticking my testing kit into me and would be extremely unhappy if one of them decided to give me some insulin!!
descarte8  
#9 Posted : 08 October 2013 10:38:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
descarte8

Didnt I read somewhere they had developed a non-intrusive blood sugar reader which did not break the skin?
Canopener  
#10 Posted : 08 October 2013 13:30:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

You may well be right, however, I can't help but feel that it is (largely) unnecessary in the vast majority of workplaces. You will find a number of people suffering from diabetes in nearly every workplace, we have a number, there may be some I don't know about and there is likely to be some people who don't know themselves! I can't help but agree with Andy that you may be looking to do something that doesn't really need doing. The vast majority of people with diabetes are able to keep a level of control that shouldn't cause significant concern in the workplace.
firesafety101  
#11 Posted : 08 October 2013 13:45:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

When I mentioned risk assessment I just meant a brief chat to find out if anything was necessary in case of attack of something caused by the diabetes. A risk assessment can be just that and not a formal document that takes hours or days to complete.
bigbishywah  
#12 Posted : 08 October 2013 16:34:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bigbishywah

Thanks for your replies, much appreciated. I think I am going to go ahead with holding the kit and a stock of gels etc in the FA room. The site is a higher hazard Comah site involved in explosives manufacture and as such employees are limited as to what they can take into the workplace with them.
johnmurray  
#13 Posted : 09 October 2013 07:15:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

"Thanks for you advice, but I know best anyway, so there" Good luck with getting minimally-trained-non-professional-medical-aid-volunteers (first aiders) conducting invasive tests on people.
Moderator 2  
#14 Posted : 09 October 2013 16:40:52(UTC)
Rank: Moderator
Moderator 2

Please be mindful of Forum rule 2 when responding to posts: "When using the forums you are expected to be polite and respectful towards all forum users ............." Thank you Moderator team
bigbishywah  
#15 Posted : 09 October 2013 16:44:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bigbishywah

JohnMurray wrote:
"Thanks for you advice, but I know best anyway, so there" Good luck with getting minimally-trained-non-professional-medical-aid-volunteers (first aiders) conducting invasive tests on people.
Thanks for that John, really nice of you to interject with such positive interactions! On the site, the workers are not permitted to take anything onto the danger area, where the work is carried out, other than themselves and the PPE required for the task. They also carry out the majority of their processes in isolation behind huge blast walls etc so picture the scene, a known diabetic has collapsed and is unconcious on the floor, where he has potentially been for 20 minutes (the time between supervisory checks), the ambulance is called and depending on their response time could take another twenty minutes to arrive (according to national response time targets). Thats 40minutes where the poor diabetic could be slipping deeper into a potentially fatal coma! In my opinion, that kind of cancels out any advice given regarding 'carrying their own test kits and glucogels or perhaps a small small carbohydrate rich snack to raise low blood sugar levels'. The dangers of hypo and hyper glyceamia are both there and I think it is better to be prepared for the worst case scenario. A wise man once said, 'its better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!'
firesafety101  
#16 Posted : 09 October 2013 17:18:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

You may be better off providing some type of "Movement" alarm, at least that way you will have early alert of a casualty who has collapsed onto the floor.
RussT  
#17 Posted : 09 October 2013 18:09:58(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
RussT

bigbishywah wrote:
On the site, the workers are not permitted to take anything onto the danger area, where the work is carried out, other than themselves and the PPE required for the task. They also carry out the majority of their processes in isolation behind huge blast walls etc so picture the scene, a known diabetic has collapsed and is unconcious on the floor, where he has potentially been for 20 minutes (the time between supervisory checks), the ambulance is called and depending on their response time could take another twenty minutes to arrive (according to national response time targets). Thats 40minutes where the poor diabetic could be slipping deeper into a potentially fatal coma! In my opinion, that kind of cancels out any advice given regarding 'carrying their own test kits and glucogels or perhaps a small small carbohydrate rich snack to raise low blood sugar levels'.
If you have an unconscious casualty on the floor, you have far bigger problems to worry about: getting a first aider to them, make area safe (if necessary), placing into the recovery position or commencing CPR, plus the fact they are in a highly hazardous area (have you considered how to get them out? ambulance crews love to bring lots of metal objects and equipment with them! AEDs, O2 - just what you don't want in an area containing explosives) than wasting precious time testing the persons blood glucose!
RussT  
#18 Posted : 09 October 2013 18:30:23(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
RussT

To add to this - the vast majority of BG testers are not intrinsically safe, either. I'm not aware of any manufacturers whom make them.
andybz  
#19 Posted : 09 October 2013 21:37:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
andybz

I am not particularly bothered that a company may choose to keep blood test monitoring equipment. But I make a point of getting involved in discussions around diabetes because I want to make sure that my diabetic son will be able to enter the world of work without having to deal with uninformed and misguided opinions. Diabetics do not slip into comas within 20 minutes and they are not in danger of dying within 40. Bear in mind that the person you are worried about at work may take an hour drive home from work, on their own, with no one present to check they are OK. They may also live alone, meaning they routinely spend 12 hours or more alone and yet they still make it to work the next day. If you really believe diabetics are in such danger at your site I suggest you need to look very carefully at the arrangements you have in place to prevent the problems you are so worried about. As a minimum this would be about providing a location to keep their kit and carry out tests; and giving them the time to do this. Also, if this dangerous place cannot be left unattended, they need a way of calling someone to come and take over if they start to feel that they may be going hypo or hyper. Finally, if you do go ahead with buying blood glucose test equipment please make sure your first aiders how to respond to the results. Getting this wrong could lead to very serious problems. Just to be clear, low results (less than 4 mmol/L) is hypo and treated with glucose. High results (more than 20 mmol/L) is hyper to the point of being potentially dangerous (over time) and insulin is required.
johnmurray  
#20 Posted : 10 October 2013 07:25:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Your reasoning makes little sense. The guy/gal has collapsed, so instead of removing that person to a place of safety you prat about in a hazardous area, having a non-medical-professional use equipment he/she has little personal knowledge about, and minimal training in the use of. Presumably the casualty will have minimal consciousness, and in the case of low blood sugar, minimal self control with frequent confusion verging upon extreme non-cooperation. So how are YOU, or your non-medical-professional-first-aid-person, going to treat that-in an area of extreme hazard? I've only known one first-aider who could be trusted to do the RIGHT thing in all my years working, and he is a nurse now. Most first-aiders tend to give themselves airs-and-graces. What is the real agenda you are working towards?
achrn  
#21 Posted : 10 October 2013 09:05:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

andybz wrote:
Finally, if you do go ahead with buying blood glucose test equipment please make sure your first aiders how to respond to the results. Getting this wrong could lead to very serious problems. Just to be clear, low results (less than 4 mmol/L) is hypo and treated with glucose. High results (more than 20 mmol/L) is hyper to the point of being potentially dangerous (over time) and insulin is required.
No don't do that. No first-aider is going to mess about with tests and test kits - they will go with their training, and that does not include any testing. If they don't test, they don't need to know anything about test results. If my organisation suddenly announced that first aiders, in contravention of all previous training, are now supposed to administer and interpret tests, I'd be resigning as first-aider pretty quick. Requiring your fist-aiders to go outside what every first-aid guidance document and all their training says is a dangerous path to be heading along. First-aiders should not be administering tests.
Canopener  
#22 Posted : 10 October 2013 10:00:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

It is of course everyone’s choice of what they chose to do however; in this case I can’t help but feel that the conclusion that it is necessary to provide blood sugar monitoring kit is both poorly conceived and unnecessary. While I didn’t agree with the ‘tone’ of John’s post at #14 (which has been ‘pulled’ but is otherwise still visible at #15!) I can’t help but agree with the general sentiment and the further point that he makes at #20. Likewise I feel that Andy makes a number of valid points in #19. There are countless ‘diabetics’ out there who get about their lives and, perish the thought are allowed out on their own, can drive, travel on the train, go to the pub, fly across the pond, engage in sporting activities etc etc without the need for immediate access to a blood sugar kit. You must do what you feel you need to do, but as someone who has suffered from diabetes for quite some years, even taking into account the specific circumstances of your work situation, I remain to be convinced that you need to go down the route of providing blood sugar monitoring kit, and would have thought that you can adequatelty control the risk (whatever you consider the risk to be) by other means.
Jane Blunt  
#23 Posted : 10 October 2013 10:14:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

russt wrote:
bigbishywah wrote:
On the site, the workers are not permitted to take anything onto the danger area, where the work is carried out, other than themselves and the PPE required for the task. They also carry out the majority of their processes in isolation behind huge blast walls etc so picture the scene, a known diabetic has collapsed and is unconcious on the floor, where he has potentially been for 20 minutes (the time between supervisory checks), the ambulance is called and depending on their response time could take another twenty minutes to arrive (according to national response time targets). Thats 40minutes where the poor diabetic could be slipping deeper into a potentially fatal coma! In my opinion, that kind of cancels out any advice given regarding 'carrying their own test kits and glucogels or perhaps a small small carbohydrate rich snack to raise low blood sugar levels'.
If you have an unconscious casualty on the floor, you have far bigger problems to worry about: getting a first aider to them, make area safe (if necessary), placing into the recovery position or commencing CPR, plus the fact they are in a highly hazardous area (have you considered how to get them out? ambulance crews love to bring lots of metal objects and equipment with them! AEDs, O2 - just what you don't want in an area containing explosives) than wasting precious time testing the persons blood glucose!
I am with this contributor. Collapsing on the floor COULD be something to do with their diabetes, but the chances are it isn't, and I think you need to deal with the generic question "what do I do with a collapsed casualty?" first. As regards the blood testing kit, I think you need to have a conversation with someone who is medically qualified - do you have an occupational health service?
hilary  
#24 Posted : 10 October 2013 10:21:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

My husband is Type 2 diabetic and doesn't need a BG monitor as he is controlled by Metformin and monitored by the doctor's surgery which they feel is enough. We do have a monitor at home so that he can check if certain foods or periods of excess (holidays, etc) have adversely affected his blood sugar levels but this is merely for interest as he is quite new to this whole diabetes "thing" and needs to know what foods, particularly, to avoid. If a diabetic needs a BG monitor on site, they will obtain dispensation to have one at the point of work - this is their perogative and I do not see this as being the role of the first aider or employer. The employer's role is to risk assess and allow this dispensation if required. A Type 1 diabetic will normally be able to tell if their levels are off by experience and take evasionary measures to combat this. I think that a blood glucose monitoring kit is totally unnecessary. In your scenario you would use this on an unconscious person - whichever way you look at this, that unconscious person could sue for assault and I don't think that is a position that either the first aiders or the employer wants to put themselves in. Tread carefully, it's well meant I am sure, but ill advised.
aland76  
#25 Posted : 10 October 2013 12:38:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
aland76

Not really adding anything new here but I agree with the majority of posters that providing and expecting first aiders to use blood-sugar monitoring really is treading on thin ice. I understand the restriction of articles in an ATEX rated zone so appreciate where you are coming from but employees individual kits can be left in the control room or a nearby none-ATEX station if required, which is exactly the same as you providing one in the same location anyway. I'd withdraw my services as first aider in a flash if asked to administer invasive testing like this, it goes against the grain of what first aiders are trained to do: i.e. either apply plasters, or in serious events make the IP comfortable and remove any hazards until the emergency services arrive. Just as an afterthought, if a none-diabetic drops to the floor, are people going to waste time running around with a blood sugar monitor just in case they turn out to be diabetic? Echoing others here, I would leave that call to the professionals. Alan
DavidGault  
#26 Posted : 10 October 2013 13:15:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DavidGault

Whilst I applaud the principle of trying to do as much as possible for employees, particularly sick or injured employees, I think you have to decide how far you want to go towards becoming some sort of GP surgery come A&E ward. I am not being facetious, I agree with a lot tof the posts above.
colinreeves  
#27 Posted : 10 October 2013 13:51:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
colinreeves

As a diabetic (Type 2) using insulin and having to go onto a large COMAH site, I agree with the majority of the posts above. First aid means to assist the casualty until professional assistance arrives (bandages, stopping bleeding, possibly helping to move the casualty). Diagnosis is NOT part of their job. Get a collapsed person to a place of safety (if they can be moved) and rely on the professional - blood glucose meters are not for first-aiders.
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