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Tigers  
#1 Posted : 09 October 2013 15:26:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Tigers

I never thought I would ask this question " Is it RIDDOR or not" but here goes.

A member of staff stands up from their desk hears a snap and the result was a broken ankle, that may have been a weakness from a previous injury.

No equipment involved, could have happened anywhere and anytime, I don't think we should bother our learned colleagues at the HSE but have doubts I am right in thinking this.

I would like your opinion and reason for anything you may offer

Thanks in anticipation
walker  
#2 Posted : 09 October 2013 15:39:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

OOOO this thread will run & run
I'm making no comment but will watch with interest
chris42  
#3 Posted : 09 October 2013 16:18:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

IMHO NO

Yes they were in work, but injury not as a direct result of a work activity and no defect issues in the facilities etc (that you have told us about). So have not met any of the criteria for it to be reportable as far as I'm concerned. (the one in the car park the other week I haven't mad my mind up about -I would want to see the car park). This I feel is easier.

Chris
chris42  
#4 Posted : 09 October 2013 16:19:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Made (mad passes the spell check)
Dazzling Puddock  
#5 Posted : 09 October 2013 17:26:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Dazzling Puddock

Not reportable IMHO.

The specified injury as described was not caused by an accident= Not reportable

The specified injury as described was not related to work= Not reportable
Nicola Kemmery  
#6 Posted : 10 October 2013 14:30:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Nicola Kemmery

I would say NO
westonphil  
#7 Posted : 10 October 2013 18:18:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
westonphil

It's a NO based upon the circumstances you describe. But do of course maintain your own records of the incident.

Regards.
Mark1969  
#8 Posted : 11 October 2013 15:07:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mark1969

Just to add another one, had a guy sneeze once - pulled something in his side he thought, less that 15 mins later he was on his way to hospital with a collapsed lung.

Was totally uncertain about reporting or not, so called the unhelp line who suggest it was a workplace injury and therefore needed to be reported.

Oh the fun we had with the Local EHO........

In your case, and with my experience I would fully investigate, use Occ health if you have it to determine any medical history and keep the investigation on file, however this is a no from me too.

Did I ever tell you about the time I had a guy run away from a wasp straight into a door and dislocate a shoulder.....oh how we still laugh about that one....
Tigers  
#9 Posted : 11 October 2013 15:11:12(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Tigers

Well it could be the Friday post for this week!!
johnmc  
#10 Posted : 11 October 2013 17:33:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnmc

Hi Tigers, I would have to go with the majority of other posts on this one, had one similar recently and did not report, also pre existing conditions are given better coverage in the latest regs.
Good luck.
Ryan.Donald  
#11 Posted : 11 October 2013 21:07:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Ryan.Donald

I would have to disagree with a few of you. It should be reported to the HSE as the break happened in work. if the break was there before she came into work then different story.

Scenario.

Employee A breaks ankle in work. Company does not RIDDOR report it. Employee ends up with "lifechanging" injury. Ending up with a permanent limp is classed as this I am sure. Employee A says to Mr Judge no I did not have a weak ankle to start with. therefore company is found liable.

Please just consider the advise. The HSE are helpful, I would talk to them and voice your concerns and they will inform you best. They are better with you than against you.

Ryan
Ryan.Donald  
#12 Posted : 11 October 2013 21:10:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Ryan.Donald

How was this not work related, it happened in work. It could have happened when he/she got off the chair at an odd angle. There is no way this can be a flat NO. It is nonsense, as employers they are responsible to investigate Accidents. I dont mean to preach Legislation but it seams people are not thinking here. I say discuss it with the HSE.
DP  
#13 Posted : 11 October 2013 21:44:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
DP

Ryan,

1 what's RIDDOR got to do with a civil matter

2 the duty to report is the employers not the hse's

3 I've no doubt the hse are very helpful land busy why waste their time?

All not reportable.
randolph  
#14 Posted : 12 October 2013 11:48:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
randolph

I would say email or call the RIDDOR deptartment and explain the situation. I have dealt with them on a number of occasions, they are very helpful.
Ryan.Donald  
#15 Posted : 13 October 2013 00:22:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Ryan.Donald

DP wrote:
Ryan,

1 what's RIDDOR got to do with a civil matter

2 the duty to report is the employers not the hse's

3 I've no doubt the hse are very helpful land busy why waste their time?

All not reportable.


I didnt mention that the HSE are respnsible for reporting, but employers do have a responsibility to report certain injuries to the authorities, Such as a broken ankle in work. If they do not report then they have omitted to follow the regulations, omiting to follow regulations will result in criminal court if I am not mistaken. In a civil court the employee would walk all over them, the company failing to follow legislation will the obvious one.

If the HSE will not mind you wasting 5 minutes of their time, thats all it will take to ask them over the phone. If it turns out that it should have been reported, then they will be glad that the company has followed legislation. Is a 5 minute conversation going to waste someone's time? probably not

I do enjoy these discussions and I am not trying to pick a fight.. just to put that out there

Ryan

DP  
#16 Posted : 13 October 2013 08:06:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
DP

Ryan, I appreciate that but your response was a bit scatter gun to say the least hence my points.

I'm fully aware of what duties RIDDOR places on employers and in this example the, IMO, would not be notifiable.

We can only go on the information posted by the OP do you honestly think that this matter is going anywhere near a criminal court for failing to report? That's what you suggested in you response and example! Further suggesting that failing to notify would support a civil matter.

Back to the HSE. Who is the OP going to talk to? The telephone service a Caerphilly ceased a while back, I revert to employers duties at this point! Note the OPs details 'public services' chances are they are regulated by the LA.

If you involve any regulator in the decision making process around notifiable matters they will in the most cases advise report, hence my comment about employers duties.
alistair  
#17 Posted : 15 October 2013 09:11:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
alistair

These posts seem to come up time and time again. I agree with most of the 'posters' that it is not reportable. The RIDDOR guidance is clear on this - just being at work does not make an injury or incident reportable. I keep promising myself that I wont respond to another similar posting so I will try and make this my last! I have involved regulators in the decision making process in the past and they have agreed (in writing) with the majority of posters regarding incidents of this nature.

Animax01  
#18 Posted : 15 October 2013 09:18:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Animax01

The accident must be work related... It's in the interpretation of this statement that you will find your answer.
The key aspects that will help you decide this, are questions like:
The condition of the site or premisses where the accident happened?
The machinery, plant, substances or equipment used?
Any historic information, is it an old injury caused through work that she has agitated?
If all of these point to it being a freak accident totally unrelated to her surroundings then I wouldn't report this.
You will still be required to make a report and keep a record of this, if you complete an accident book then this will suffice.
alistair  
#19 Posted : 15 October 2013 09:27:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
alistair

I think I must have missed something. In which guidance document relating to RIDDOR is "Any historic information, is it an old injury caused through work that she has agitated?" quoted as one of the factors in deciding whether an injury is reportable? I am happy to stand corrected of course.
Animax01  
#20 Posted : 15 October 2013 16:05:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Animax01

It's not actually cited anywhere that I am aware of, but would it not be prudent to consider it all the same? Much in the same way you might dismiss a personal injury that becomes an issue within work.
If she had broken her ankle whilst tripping over some loose carpet 6 months previous and it was the old injury that had flared up again, this would be regarded as work related. If it simply just gave way, and none of my previous comments were involved then I wouldn't report it.
gramsay  
#21 Posted : 15 October 2013 16:07:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gramsay

Ryan.Donald wrote:
DP wrote:
employers do have a responsibility to report certain injuries to the authorities, Such as a broken ankle in work.


Hi Ryan - the above is the bit that people disagree with. You won't find it anywhere in RIDDOR (old or new), but it's a very common misconception. The injury has to arise from a work-related accident (ie caused by work, not just one that happens there).

I find it helpful to remember that RIDDOR is mainly about collecting statistics for the government, it's nothing to do with your accident investigation or your preventative measures. It's useless to the government to have the statistics messed up with reports of people tripping over their own shoe laces or sitting on cactuses (cacti? don't ask).

The new RIDDOR's much clearer in layout in this regard (in my opinion!) even though much of the wording remains the same.
A Kurdziel  
#22 Posted : 15 October 2013 16:22:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

gramsay wrote:
Ryan.Donald wrote:
DP wrote:
employers do have a responsibility to report certain injuries to the authorities, Such as a broken ankle in work.


Hi Ryan - the above is the bit that people disagree with. You won't find it anywhere in RIDDOR (old or new), but it's a very common misconception. The injury has to arise from a work-related accident (ie caused by work, not just one that happens there).

I find it helpful to remember that RIDDOR is mainly about collecting statistics for the government, it's nothing to do with your accident investigation or your preventative measures. It's useless to the government to have the statistics messed up with reports of people tripping over their own shoe laces or sitting on cactuses (cacti? don't ask).

The new RIDDOR's much clearer in layout in this regard (in my opinion!) even though much of the wording remains the same.

When deciding to fill in a RIDDOR you have to apply that precious commodity ‘common sense’. The objective of RIDDOR is to enable the HSE to compile stats based on work related incidents. In my opinion someone’s leg giving way as they stood up is not a RIDDOR unless there a evidence that this was caused by a work activity. Similarly, last year one of our employees stood up and had a heart attack and died. I did not record that as a RIDDOR as again it was not work related. The cactus issue is a moot point. We employee inspectors who visit garden centres and if one of then sat on or fell onto a cactus in a garden centre and injure themselves and the injury or length of time off work was within the scope of RIDDOR then I would report it as a RIDDOR as this was clearly within the reporting requirements for the regs.
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