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SBH  
#1 Posted : 14 November 2013 09:03:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SBH

We recently got hit by a lightning strike which hit a remote building but took out seven of our fire alarm panel network cards which are interconnected. The overall infrastructure - incoming has surge protection fitted plus also building lightning protection. The question is do we need surge protection to the fire panels to protect the panels? We have 24 panels

We have had a quote which is outrageous - in excess of 10 grand!!!!!!

Any advice appreciated.

Has anyone else jhad this protection retrospectively fitted?

SBH
JJ Prendergast  
#2 Posted : 14 November 2013 09:17:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JJ Prendergast

Risk assessment / Cost Benefit Analysis.

Can't you claim off your insurance?
CarlT  
#3 Posted : 14 November 2013 14:35:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
CarlT

Are you talking fire suppression system of fire alarm system?

If it is purely to do with the alarms you can have bells or air horns in each location as a backup for those what must be extremely remote occurrences.
SBH  
#4 Posted : 14 November 2013 14:58:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SBH

We are a hospital - self insuring. Lots of risk. Yes it is surge suppression to the fire alarm panels I am talking about. Yes we do initiate fire watch patrols if needed
Risk assessment / Cost Benefit Analysis. This would probably mean not doing it as the incident is a one off, but could it happen again - yes. If it did it could blow all the surge suppression units , cost = £10,000 once again. Or we could repair the system and have a fire watch for a few days.

The original question remains would you consider it.

SBH
JJ Prendergast  
#5 Posted : 14 November 2013 15:42:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JJ Prendergast

But thats the whole point of dosing a CBA - to decide if its worth doing, considering the cost, likelihood and possible consequences.

Ideally it should be done by an independent assessor, so as not to be swayed by internal politics / cost pressures etc.

Agreed, it may happen again - but how often?
tony.  
#6 Posted : 14 November 2013 18:56:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
tony.

How do you think 10k is bad.

The system needs to be designed, installed, certified drawings

We use http://www.zymax.com/products.htm#zd. No interest in the company
For all our protection needs, generally a scottish water spec for cabling between buildings if i seem to remember
Psycho  
#7 Posted : 15 November 2013 10:06:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Psycho

Answer thease questions
are you a hospital recognised as one of the most risky places in the UK
Is your alarm system used to give maximum warning to staff for horizontal evacuation
Do you have High dependency patients
Has your fire alarm been compremised due to a lightning strike
has this identified a weakness in your system that would prevent staff getting maximum warning

I would not even consider it pay the money you pay more for a consultants chair
10K would not stock a ward in sharps boxes for a year and here we are talking life risk

we have just paid £950,000 and thats just for an upgrade to half a system in 1 of our 7 hospitals
would love to see the look on your directors face if i was to ask him for similar
JJ Prendergast  
#8 Posted : 15 November 2013 10:21:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JJ Prendergast

Its also about being pragmatic in terms of the risks/consequences and potential for loss prevention management.

I do have some experience of working in the NHS - I would not describe a hospital as one of the 'most risky places in he UK'. Sure possibly lots of vulnerable people who may be immobile and need protecting etc.

Getting the most for whatever financial resources are available.

I'm not arguing the case either way for the possible remedial work - just to justify, what action is taken.
SNS  
#9 Posted : 15 November 2013 10:48:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SNS

Fix it, but also look at the lightning risk and protection requirement. LPS properly assessed, designed and installed should prevent future events.
JJ Prendergast  
#10 Posted : 15 November 2013 11:10:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JJ Prendergast

Is money unlimited then?

Fix it at any cost/any level of liklihood?

ALARP, SFAIRP etc etc

JJ Prendergast  
#11 Posted : 15 November 2013 11:49:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JJ Prendergast

Look at it this way.

If the original poster's location/building had NOT been struck by lightning - would fitting surge protection to the fire alarm system even be on the risk priority register??

Where money should be spent etc

Probably not, I would think.

Knee jerk risk management, is not the way forward
CarlT  
#12 Posted : 15 November 2013 14:30:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
CarlT

I totally agree JJ, just paying out is easy (if you have the money) doing a considered risk analysis is more work but the right way of doing things.
Psycho  
#13 Posted : 15 November 2013 16:05:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Psycho

JJ Prendergast wrote:
Its also about being pragmatic in terms of the risks/consequences and potential for loss prevention management.

I do have some experience of working in the NHS - I would not describe a hospital as one of the 'most risky places in he UK'. Sure possibly lots of vulnerable people who may be immobile and need protecting etc.
quote]

Ooh sorry must apologise obviously got my words wrong should have put a hospital is a large assembly area were the some of the persons assembling, are categorised into a number of groups one of the groups is Very high dependency patients. In departments with this type of assembly area such as operating theatres and critical care areas etc, any movement or evacuation of patients may be life-threatening; consequently, additional precautions are required to address the implications this makes the area high risk not for a fire but in the event of such an incident staff need warning about it, so that they can react effectively usually there is only 1 member of staff to 8 patients so on a ward you could have 24 patients 3 members of staff, which may not sound to bad until you realise its an orthopaedic ward they have just done operations on hips, knees and joints so 23 of the patients are bed ridden, its ok the 24th is an arsonist has not had his operation and sets fire to the ward.

A hospital is not a normal area of assembly preventing the alarm becoming defective through a lightning strike is not a Fix it at any cost/any level of liklihood this is a building were The function of fire alarms in premises accommodating dependent or very high dependency patients is to give warning to staff in the event of fire so that an early call to the fire and rescue service, first-aid fire-fighting and evacuation may be carried out. This Hospital has history of a lightning strike which has taken out 7 panals of the fire alarm system for the sake of 10k this can be put right and it will never happen again ensuring a fully working system, The UK is well overdue a large hospital fire
http://www.preventionweb...londonhospitalfires1.pdf
We had 3 accounts of arson, Last year each of the arsons were picked up early with a fully working alarm system and the areas where they happened were fully evacuated one was on the orthopeadic ward above. Hospitals dont even come under the normal fire stuff they have the firecode, a suite of documents to prevent incident and protect the vulnerable. On a serious scale for a hospital not to have a fully working (Has to be L1 Cat as per firecode) fire alarm system 24/7 is like a nuclear power station not to have a watchkeeper. Ie. if no one is watching someone could die. All i can say is it was a good thing that in the london 5 all of them had working fire alarm systems

mssy  
#14 Posted : 15 November 2013 19:43:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

JJ Prendergast wrote:

I do have some experience of working in the NHS - I would not describe a hospital as one of the 'most risky places in he UK'. .


JJP- whilst perhaps could have worded his phrase more eloquently, I think you know exactly what psycho means.

One of the main requirements when completing a FRA is to identify those especially at risk, and I am hard pressed to think of a more vulnerable group of relevant persons than those with their guts laid out on an operating theatre, & who require a hugely risky (and delayed) evacuation procedure before they reach a place of relative safety.

Sorry for hijacking the thread off course, but I can't let such a statement go unchallenged (Even on a Friday!!!)


JJ Prendergast  
#15 Posted : 16 November 2013 00:20:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JJ Prendergast

As with all these things, its a matter of opinion.

Didn't say there wasn't an issue with high dependency patients etc - just I don't believe hospitals are the 'most risky places in the UK'

As per the topic of this thread, is about whether certain remedial work should be undertaken on a fire alarm system

My point is, and I have made quite clear, is that the risk analysis should be done properly, not on a knee jerk basis.

Consideration of patients vulnerability needs to be factored into the CBA.
SBH  
#16 Posted : 16 November 2013 17:36:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SBH

Now, to throw a spanner in the works.
If the surge protection is fitted, at 10k, and we are hit by lightning again, it could blow all the suppression therefore 10 k wasted, and we would need to spend 10k again on replacement suppression, but the fire alarm would be OK, or if not fitted then several network cards could be blown at 10% cost of the suppression system but the fire alarm system is partly inoperative for a few days whilst cards are fitted.
We have opted for spare cards - for 25% of the system

What would you do?

SBH
Psycho  
#17 Posted : 17 November 2013 09:39:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Psycho

SBH wrote:
Now, to throw a spanner in the works.
If the surge protection is fitted, at 10k, and we are hit by lightning again, it could blow all the suppression therefore 10 k wasted, and we would need to spend 10k again on replacement suppression, but the fire alarm would be OK, or if not fitted then several network cards could be blown at 10% cost of the suppression system but the fire alarm system is partly inoperative for a few days whilst cards are fitted.
We have opted for spare cards - for 25% of the system

What would you do?

SBH


I would log it in my risk assessment that this has been identified
I would then put it on the major RRO list that goes to the quarterly fire meeting
were it can be discussed with the responsible person
Its then the decision of the meeting chairman as to what happens.
and get it logged in the minutes job done
or
you could not tell anyone make the decision that it will cost to much and should an incident
happen in the future in your hospital when the fire alarm is down caused by a lightning strike
I will see your name in the paper, as I can guarantee they will find someone to blame and it wont be the responsible person!!!!
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