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Lucy D  
#1 Posted : 21 November 2013 20:59:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Lucy D

I have been told today that some companies are now docking the wages of their staff if they are found to have infringed company h&s rules.
Has anyone experience of implementing a system like this - does it achieve better compliance?
Is it legal if written into an employment contract?
johnmc  
#2 Posted : 21 November 2013 21:16:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnmc

Hi Lucy, my company pays the operatives just above minimum wage but makes up their money with a production bonus and this is doubled through a safety bonus. We currently have a well engaged team who are not afraid to report any issues and will not allow anyone reduce standards which will threaten their bonus.
Good luck.
JoshuaX  
#3 Posted : 21 November 2013 22:20:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
JoshuaX

Hi Lucy it's in our discipline policy that employees can be suspended for up to five days without pay as an alternative to dismissal. It's not got to the stage of using it but employees understand its in there. Being the HR manager as well is brilliant lol
bob youel  
#4 Posted : 22 November 2013 08:19:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

An old system used in many areas but it must be well throughout, fair and managed as most such systems only chastise front line staff whereas managers, office staff etc. do not get managed thus it causes problems and can be counter productive


Canopener  
#5 Posted : 22 November 2013 08:43:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

It’s not a recent thing; it’s been around for ages (ever!). I have seen it used before in our building services division (albeit a long time ago) however, there are limited circumstances when an employer can make deductions, see the links below for more information. Contractual is one such instance but I would suggest that you word your contract vary carefully and have a robust procedure/policy and follow it!

https://www.gov.uk/under...deductions-from-your-pay

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4125

The idea that you could/would suspend someone as an alternative (!) to dismissal is ‘interesting’. I would have thought that if someone has done something that warrants dismissal, why would you not do that? It seems a very odd approach to me.

I would be rather sceptical whether such a system in preference to other less 'draconian' methods would in itself achieve genuine compliance. On the other hand, £ is the bottom line for most people.
RayRapp  
#6 Posted : 22 November 2013 09:51:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I'm no expert on employment law but I would be surprised if it is legal to deduct pay for a safety infringement. You can suspend someone - for example, pending the outcome of an investigation, but this is normally with full pay.
PIKEMAN  
#7 Posted : 22 November 2013 10:50:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PIKEMAN

I have an even better idea - dock their manager's salary. Think about it.
chrisfromtaunton  
#8 Posted : 22 November 2013 14:09:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
chrisfromtaunton

I asked a good HR colleague of mine for a viewpoint :

I was interested in the forum’s comments.

As a factual answer to making any deductions from employee wages then it is clear that any deductions need to be agreed with an employee or be an express clause in their employment contract. In the event that any deductions from wages are made without agreement or an express term in the contract then the employee can take the employer to a tribunal with a claim of UNLAWFUL DEDUCTION FROM WAGES.

In terms of giving a financial penalty rather than dismissing an employee for a breach of health and safety, this is a matter for the person in the Company who would be held responsible for a fatality should it ever happen. In summary if the Company has H & S policy and procedures that are breached and then allow the employee to come back to the role after some small financial loss then the H & S executive and police will certainly be interested in the Company’s past approach to H & S in the event of any fatality.

A recent case of a fatality where a number of loaded pallets fell on an employee and killed him is, as you can imagine, being crawled all over by the police and H & S executive. They are looking at the Company’s H & S practices. Therefore I would recommend that if a Company feels a warning or financial penalty (if agreed with the employee) is reasonable to give to an employee who has breached health & Safety practices and procedures then it may be time to review this now. Also by giving warnings to employees instead of dismissal this can set a precedent in the Company for other employees should they do the same.

Employment and the actions of employees and how that can have a detrimental effect on a Company is what we do and how we help them to make decisions based on evidence. We have dismissed an employee who injured themselves by lifting an item alone when the Company had an audit record that the employee would have known not to lift this item alone.

CarlT  
#9 Posted : 23 November 2013 22:03:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
CarlT

In the last company I was in before I retired we paid the employees bonuses and they were discressionary and based on a number of criterion such as timekeeping, attendance and yes, adherance to the firms' safety policies.
It wasn't perfect but it did work and there were none of the problems associated with docking peoples pay.
RayRapp  
#10 Posted : 24 November 2013 00:16:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

'Employment and the actions of employees and how that can have a detrimental effect on a Company is what we do and how we help them to make decisions based on evidence. We have dismissed an employee who injured themselves by lifting an item alone when the Company had an audit record that the employee would have known not to lift this item alone.'

Seems rather draconian to dismiss an employee for a manual handling infringement. What do you do if someone has a serious accident - shoot them?!

John J  
#11 Posted : 24 November 2013 20:02:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John J

If you start mixing up financial rewards and penalties with health and safety expectations you are heading for disaster.

Your stats will look great but they will not reflect reality. I 100% guarantee that will be the case.

Also, unless its agreed, it's an illegal deduction from wages.
johnmurray  
#12 Posted : 25 November 2013 06:49:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

"Seems rather draconian to dismiss an employee for a manual handling infringement. What do you do if someone has a serious accident - shoot them"

No, that's reserved for the managers that do their job badly.
So, that's over 90% of management pushing-up daisies!
Victor Meldrew  
#13 Posted : 25 November 2013 11:42:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Victor Meldrew

Lucy D wrote:
I have been told today that some companies are now docking the wages of their staff if they are found to have infringed company h&s rules.
Has anyone experience of implementing a system like this - does it achieve better compliance?
Is it legal if written into an employment contract?



I think someone has got you on a 'wind up' here Lucy D. However, linking good safety performance to a bonus / appraisal system is different. When I was on the 'tools' one of my annual H&S objectives was to ensure that there were no LTAs as a direct fault of mine in my area(s) of responsibility..... certainly focused the mind.
allanwood  
#14 Posted : 25 November 2013 11:49:25(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
allanwood

As an ex miner i can inform readers / posters that this type of thing was being used over 30 years ago, and in full agreement with the unions.
however, if you got "fined" all monies raised went to the local special needs school in the village.
This type of system isnt perfect by all means but it certainly focuses peoples minds.
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