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Graham  
#1 Posted : 29 November 2013 11:44:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Graham

I know that it is compulsory to have a fire risk assessment for a building. But we occupy a small open plan quadrant of a large open plan office block. This office block has a fire risk assessment. Are we legally required to have a fire risk assessment specifically for our corner. We do exactly the same work as everyone else in the office block, and we were included in the building's fire risk assessment. Given my past experience of fire risk assessments most of the findings will be actioned on the landlord, things like intumescent seals and building structures like paths and fire exit doors. Must I spend the money needed to repeat the exercise already undertaken by the landlord?
wturner  
#2 Posted : 29 November 2013 11:58:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
wturner

In my opinion, providing the Risk Assessment is suitable and sufficient, and available for everyone to consult I see no need make additional work. That is of course assuming there are no specific risks in your particular area. Just make sure it's a controlled document, and that you have a copy.
Canopener  
#3 Posted : 29 November 2013 15:11:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

A fire risk assessment for your demise?!!!! For a moment then I thought that this was the start of a Friday thread and you were planning on being cremated!
mssy  
#4 Posted : 29 November 2013 16:39:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

Graham - I bring bad news! If there are more than one occupier (or demise) in a single premises, then each occupier must complete a fire risk assessments for their own demise and any area that their staff are likely to resort to (common spaces such as stairs, corridors, toilets, covered car parks etc). Multiple occupancy buildings such as Shopping centres to huge office blocks all have to do the same. Some premises will have perhaps scores of FRAs The various 'responsible persons' must by law cooperate and coordinate their findings, and that is never more important where duplication is likely - such as common parts. In your case, complete a FRA for your small area and then ask the landlords for sight of their FRA. Where your responsibilities overlap, use their document as a guide and review their findings. If you agree with them, record the findings in YOUR FRA and the job is almost done. It should not be onerous as the landlords (ie the main occupier) have done most of the work for you. While you are looking at the landlords FRA, you should take the opportunity to ensure your emergency plan's tie up - and record that in your report too. Job done - Good luck
Steve e ashton  
#5 Posted : 29 November 2013 23:19:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

Mssy has it right - but the FRA for tenants must always take account of lease conditions... And will (often) be shorter than the "whole premises" FRA - cos you can't be expected to look in ceiling voids or underfloor cavities if they 'belong' to someone else....
Ron Hunter  
#6 Posted : 30 November 2013 16:42:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Canopener wrote:
A fire risk assessment for your demise?!!!! For a moment then I thought that this was the start of a Friday thread and you were planning on being cremated!
I understood the word "demise" in the context used in the OP to be a verb, not a noun.
Canopener  
#7 Posted : 01 December 2013 19:48:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

I understood the (rather unusual) use of the word; the result of many years working next to and with our property team. Since it was Friday I was being mischievous; but failed miserably!
mssy  
#8 Posted : 01 December 2013 20:25:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

The word 'Demise' in this context relates to a legal definition regarding a lease. From Oxford Dictionary................ noun [in singular] 1a person’s death or 1b the end or failure of an enterprise or institution:the demise of industry 2 [mass noun] Law conveyance or transfer of property or a title by will or lease.
Ron Hunter  
#9 Posted : 01 December 2013 21:55:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Curious. My Concise Oxford has it as a transitive verb.
A Kurdziel  
#10 Posted : 02 December 2013 12:00:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I think that the estates people are thinking about the old English word- demesne, which means the property you actually directly manage yourself as oppose to the bits that you rent out.
Ron Hunter  
#11 Posted : 02 December 2013 13:18:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

I believe that whilst both are archaic, both have specific and distinct meanings.
Graham Bullough  
#12 Posted : 03 December 2013 00:46:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Methinks I wasn't the only forum user to be confused by reading about fire risk assessment immediately after seeing "my demise" in the thread title. For what it's worth (admittedly very little), some of us only knew of "demise" as a synonym for 'death', perhaps through acquaintance with the infamous 'Dead Parrot' sketch in Monty Python's Flying Circus first broadcast in December 1969: The character played by John Cleese berates the pet shop keeper for having duped him into buying a dead 'Norwegian Blue' parrot on the basis that its lack of movement was due to it being tired.....out after a long squawk. After the pet shop keeper argues that the bird is probably pining for the fiords, its new owner points out that "It's * demised......it's passed on.....It has ceased to be. This is a late parrot. It's a stiff, bereft of life, it rests in peace." :-) p.s. At * the word which preceded 'demise' in the sketch was omitted from this posting in order to avoid any possible breach of forum rules. p.p.s. As a further piece of whimsical but otherwise useless information, I kept a dead parrot wired onto a perch beside my desk for some years during my former employment. Though its type could not be readily discerned from its plumage, it was evidently not a 'Norwegian Blue'. Furthermore, it was definitely demised before I bought it from the shop! :-)
Gavin Gibson  
#13 Posted : 03 December 2013 13:13:44(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Gavin Gibson

I suggest you start with the land lords FRA, this will give you a good idea of what the issues are, then simply tweek the data to suit your needs and cut out what you do not want / need. This is an effective, if slightly quick and dirty, way of completing the FRA when you do basically the same activities as everyone else.
Graham  
#14 Posted : 03 December 2013 13:34:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Graham

Dear All Thanks very much for the valuable responses. Sorry to have raised the spectre of ones demise by using the word demise in a way that is frankly new to me as well. Does anyone have a better term, or is this just a lawyers way of using antiquated terms so as to justify their existance :-)..? Thanks again
jarsmith83  
#15 Posted : 03 December 2013 16:11:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

I am going to disagree with some of the comments above and probably have comments back at to why previous statements are justified however....... It is not mandatory for those who operate in an area/office of a building to complete a FRA. The RRFSO 2005 makes reference to the responsible person as the person who has control of the premises. As mentioned by another contributor of the thread, this may be made clear in the lease agreement. Even once it has been established who is in control, which could very well be a person for each area, that does not necessarily mean there has to be several FRA`s. It could be the case that a strategic team is in place and one FRA is formalized by each 'responsible person' (co-operation and co-ordination).
jarsmith83  
#16 Posted : 03 December 2013 16:14:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

"It could be the case that a strategic team is in place and one FRA is formalized by each 'responsible person' (co-operation and co-ordination)." To clarify, I mean one FRA and several responsible persons contributing to this one FRA.
Ron Hunter  
#17 Posted : 03 December 2013 22:37:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Agreed. A single collaborative FRA is entiirely acceptable.
6foot4  
#18 Posted : 04 December 2013 10:18:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
6foot4

mmmm, there could be a role similar to the CDM Coordinator to make sure everyone coordinates, cooperates and communicates. We could call this the RRO Fire Coordinator. Before you all jump on me, I was being facetious.
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