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PHurley  
#1 Posted : 30 December 2013 07:50:14(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
PHurley

A person (strong, healthy, 60 year old male) standing in two inches of water receives a fatal electric shock. The period of discharge may be milli-seconds . There are no witnesses. The person is discovered 2-5 minutes later and is barely breathing. Cause of death recorded as cardiac arrest from high voltage. What type of injuries (internal / external) could be reasonably expected to be present on the victim? What level of amperage / voltage would be necessary to cause cardiac arrest during an instant discharge? Would it be apparent during the autopsy that the victim was electrocuted?
firesafety101  
#2 Posted : 30 December 2013 09:58:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Is this a real event

How do we know he didn't drown?

If it was electric shock how did he contact the live current?

I'm no expert but there is usually an entry and exit point, if he grabbed a live cable the current would pass through his heart on its way to ground.
A Kurdziel  
#3 Posted : 30 December 2013 10:03:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

This is something for a pathologist/coroner to decide not, in my opinion a H&S person.
wjp62  
#4 Posted : 30 December 2013 13:25:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
wjp62

Canopener  
#5 Posted : 30 December 2013 14:39:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

A Kurdziel wrote:
This is something for a pathologist/coroner to decide not, in my opinion a H&S person.


I have to agree, it looks like one for Quincy to me!
paul.skyrme  
#6 Posted : 30 December 2013 21:06:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

As above no way of telling from the OP.

Think also of step potential though.
RayRapp  
#7 Posted : 31 December 2013 01:35:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I'm no electrical expert but I have to agree with other posters that from the information provided it's impossible to give a suitable answer. For a start, the voltage/amperage has not been stated which would have a significant bearing on the type of injuries sustained - both external and internal.

From what I can recall from my Uni studies the severity of an electric shock will depend on a number of variables - impedance (resistance), voltage, duration, path of the current (through the heart is more lethal) frequency and whether it is AC or DC.

The theoretical minimum voltage for a fatal shock is 50V if my memory is correct. I can confirm that water and electricity are not a good combination.
HeO2  
#8 Posted : 01 January 2014 15:53:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
HeO2

The usual pathophysiology is that the current causes the heart to go into Ventricular Fibrillation.

The VF will get finer and eventually cause Asystole ( flat line usually poor prognosis )

This unchallenged will cause death by cardiac arrest.
I think the figure is around 100 milliamperes of current to the myocardium to cause this.

Phil
Zimmy  
#9 Posted : 03 January 2014 10:12:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

I'll play with this one then? Being new year and all that.

High Voltage = above 1000v ac
Taking it that entry is through hand or head through to feet.

Burns to head/hands as point of entry. These may be small pin-holes or larger. If body /clothes are wet the surface spread burns on skin. For the most part the burns will be under the skin zig-zag using the main blood supply paths. Exit will be via the foot area maybe tracking from skin/clothes.

Internal bubbles in blood and body parts as current will cause the blood to heat-up in an instant. Voltage/current like a tree... pop!

Current/voltage dependant major damage to internal organs in the path of the current...

The damage will be in proportion to the resistance of the poor persons body as V= IxR etc or Amps passing through the body will increase as the body resistance decreases with moisture

Or something like that.
Zimmy  
#10 Posted : 03 January 2014 10:16:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

The poster was only asking what type of injury one could expect to see... if milli seconds at say 5A burns would not be huge but at say 100A the fun starts... Call Nigella as frying tonight? (she may bring some coke to the party and we could have a BBQ)
PHurley  
#11 Posted : 05 January 2014 06:58:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
PHurley

Thanks for the responses guys, will check the links too.

To round up the queries: Yes this is a real incident I am investigating a fatality in the workplace in a developing country, the initial report from the coroner states cardiac arrest by high voltage electrocution. The investigation will use the coroners report as a key piece of evidence, just wanted some additional info into the signs to look for in electrocution to help support the investigation process.

Bit of additional information: voltage and amperage either - 415v and 157Amp, or 220v and 1 Amp. Frequency and current TBC. From the information already provided it appears that this would be enough to cause to fatality.


paul.skyrme  
#12 Posted : 05 January 2014 10:16:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

I am guessing that these are the potential voltages & currents available, those are nit necessarily what the body will have been subjected to.

Also either your figures, or the coroner are wrong.

If you are correct the coroner is wrong.

If the coroner is correct, then your figures are wrong.

The figures you quote are not high voltage they are low voltage.
Zimmy  
#13 Posted : 05 January 2014 10:54:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

At 230v then .5A more than plenty to pop ones clogs.

As Paul said, 400/415 is low voltage (UK at any rate) Point is, how was he/she in contact with the current flow? If holding on to an object and 'gripping it, then I guess it was for more than a few milli seconds as one would tend to be gripping the thing as tight as them mussels would be capable of. only an rcd device would open with a few milli wolts in a short time a fuse/mcb would need a lot more amps and then... well you know the answer to that problem. If contact was made with say the back of the hand then the reaction would tend to throw the person away from the contact point.

415 would indicate 2No. points of contact with a third being earth.

Zimmy  
#14 Posted : 05 January 2014 10:56:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Milli wolts? That should read (as Paul will tell me via email) Milli AMPS!

:-) Happy new year all x
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