Rank: Super forum user 
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Dilemma? I'm on the horns of one.
We have a team (let's call them Team A) that has competence in managing permit systems and the activities associated with permits. They do this very well.
We have other teams (Non-Team A) that have competence in activities but none in permits. And we're not properly applying a permit system to their activities that are appropriate for one. Non-Team A won't become competent for some time so an idea is for Team A to issue and close their permits for them, leaving the intervening supervision of the activity to Non-Team A.
And there's the rub. Team A will not issue or close permits without being responsible for the bit in between and they don't have time for that.
Looking at HSG 250 paras 25 et seq, there is some scope for this approach (i.e. minimum start & finish supervision) but the spirit really does seem to be "you sign it, you carry the can".
What say ye?
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Rank: Super forum user
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From the information provided, there is a presumption that all the Teams identified are under the overall control of one "employer" or workplace controller.
There is absolutely no defensible reason for there not to be a compromise solution here that combines the experise of all Teams.
Therefore, the real question here is that given the info provided, who runs the business; Team A or The Employer?
Frank Hallett
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Rank: Super forum user
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Excellent question, Frank.
Yes, they all work for the same employer.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I suppose the real clincher here is, how sacred is this "issuer takes responsibility for ensuring the activity is completed as per RAMS"?
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Rank: Forum user
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A Team sounds much better than team A!
Think you missed an opportunity there, it is nearly Friday after all. :/
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Rank: Super forum user
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Can't believe I missed that, sutty. Gutted.
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Rank: Forum user
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Hi Mate
I have seen many PTW systems where the Performing Authority(PA) can be the PA on several permits. Usually the workscopes will be categorised as to the severity or potential resulting from the task, i.e. high hazard activities with high potential would be category A, medium Cat B and low cat C. You can then organise so that a PA can hold one cat A only, 2 Cat B PTW, 2 Cat B plus 1 cat C , etc thus splitting the required time to be on site. This is all proceduralised on a matrix as part of the system. This might give you a bit of scope for flexibility while still ensuring the work is monitored appropriately. Should be noted that this is in environment where pretty much all tasks are considered as requiring permit control
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Rank: Super forum user
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Thanks, nickygee. Useful.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Hi safetyamateur;
I'm sorry, but I'm still struggling to understand how the original Team A could have the extensive and considerable spread and depth of competences to manage all of the possible activities that may fall within the possible remit of a PtW system [that's question 1] but are unable to share that expertise effectively with topic specialists - the other teams - [that's question 2] and also apparently refuse a legitimate requirement of the employer to share that expertise [that's question 3].
If I was presented with a situation of that nature, I would be deeply suspicious of the whole management structure here.
Frank Hallett
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Rank: Super forum user
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Thanks, Frank.
OK, Team A is the Estates/Premises people. Non-Team A is a team which manages, for example, the window cleaning contract. Some of these at height activities should be controlled by a permit but Non-Team A aren't competent. Team A don't want to supervise the activity because it's not their responsibility.
Could Team A issue & close the permit (i.e. say "Yep, your RAMS are OK. Here's permission to work") and Non-Team A supervise the actual activity? The guidance seems to say that's not the way things should be done.
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Rank: Super forum user
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OK safetyamateur - This could put material in the public domain that you may not wish to.
I'll PM you shortly.
Frank Hallett
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