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J0L0  
#1 Posted : 21 January 2014 12:14:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
J0L0

Is anybody aware of any legal precedent, in which enforcing authority (does not have to be UK specific) prosecuted Principal Contractor or Contractor for reviewing Subcontractor's RAMS, when they were found unsuitable after accident?
paulw71  
#2 Posted : 21 January 2014 12:59:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paulw71

Whilst I am sure this isnt a precendent below is a link to a recent HSE prosecution where one of the issues raised was the PC`s failure to ensure the suitability of sub-contractor method statements. Regards http://press.hse.gov.uk/...owing-platform-collapse/
firesafety101  
#3 Posted : 21 January 2014 13:31:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Thanks for the link Paul. Not so long ago I posted a question about CDM C's reviewing PC's RA/MS and the answers I got led to a view that there was no requirement. We now have definite proof that the PCs need to study all sub contractor's RA/MS or risk falling fail of the HSE. JOLO I think you have your answer.
Canopener  
#4 Posted : 21 January 2014 13:44:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

While it isn't a CDM/principal contractor case per se, the Associated Octel case deals with a not dissimilar principle.
J0L0  
#5 Posted : 21 January 2014 14:36:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
J0L0

Thank you for your comments and useful link. @FireSafety101, In my opinion it is not the definite proof that the PCs need to study all sub contractor's RAMS. As HSE Inspector was quoted: "They (PCs) need to make sure that there is a proper assessment of the content of the documentation provided to ensure that they make sense and properly address the risks associated with the work being undertaken." It can be interpreted in the way that principal contractor did not ensure contractors competencies or prequalification process did not check that. In addition, HSE Inspector did not specify that PC is responsible for "proper assessment". and "...site safety inspections, all of these were superficial and failed to identify significant systemic failures." Review of each contractors RAMS does not have necessarily to identify "systematic failures", as this would look into each RAMS, as a separate document. From my perspective this could be demonstrated via audit of contractors H&S Management System.
firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 21 January 2014 18:53:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

St George South London Ltd (SGSL), the principal contractor for construction work at the site, was today (9 January) fined after an investigation by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) identified a number of failings. IMO you would be wrong to ignore the prosecution, to me it means the PC should be checking the RAMS. I know what I would be doing in future.
RayRapp  
#7 Posted : 21 January 2014 21:09:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

After an accident the HSE and other regulators are often blessed with hindsight. If a PC brought in a specialist contractor for a particular task would the PC be competent enough to check and approve the RAMS? The CDM Regs are part guidance and part a means of prosecution. All too often the regs are ignored by Clients, PCs and Designers, only for the good old HSE to prosecute following an accident. Is that setting a precedent? No, I don't think so because there is always the potential to prosecute for whatever reason. There is also a caveat in the CDM Regs that PCs do not have provide close supervision for sub-contractors. Exactly what 'close supervision' means in practice I could only hazard an opinion. Ultimately it will be for the court to decide as I'm not aware of any precedent - watch this space!
Canopener  
#8 Posted : 22 January 2014 09:04:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Ray makes a couple of good points and in particular the gift on hindsight is a powerful tool in the HSE’s tool box, and that a contractor may (not always) be brought in because the PC doesn’t have the necessary expertise for that particular aspect of work. The PC merely checking the RAMS would in those circumstances seem something of a folly. Looking at the OP, it strikes me that what any organisation may claim that they are going to do within a RAMS, policy, SSOW etc etc etc may be different (slightly or substantially) from what they or their workforce actually do in practice. The usual rules of contracting out work should apply, whether a project comes under CDM or not. You should have reasonable (robust) procedures for appointing competent contractors and supervising (this might include but is not limited to checking RAMS) the contactor/contract. Whether it is reasonable that the client (under CDM this could be the PC) to check and if necessary query or insist on changes to RAMS is debatable (as per the point about the competency of the client to do so) and depending on the size, duration and complexity of the project, this could become something of a life’s work. I would have thought that a client might be best protect themselves from prosecution as the result of a failing by a contractor, by having appointing competent contractors and ‘supervising’ the contract. Checking the RAMS will not in itself do this. There are any number of cases where 'clients' have been prosecuted for what is on the face of it a failure of the contractor (although clearly the prosecutions case is that the client either failed to appoint a competent contractor or failed to properly supervise them), Associated Octel is a case in point.
boblewis  
#9 Posted : 22 January 2014 11:55:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Do not forget the implications of Reg 4 CDM2007 Competence. Any party bringing another party onto the site for work whether this is the client, designer, PC or other contractor has duties to ensure competence. The RAMS can form part of that assessment but cannot replace looking at the contractor concerned whilst at work. If the RA is not followed how can the people be competent? or are they just negligent or can you withstand non competent or negligent? I have personal knowledge of a PN being served on the PC for his subcontractor not following the SCs on lock off precedure for access to the roof void area of a theatre. This was under the 94 regs and the 2007 regs make the position even clearer in my view. Bob
Mick Noonan  
#10 Posted : 22 January 2014 12:01:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mick Noonan

In my experience, reviewing RAMS is the norm. It's a good clean way to control the work and how it gets done. It's also an effective communications tool and your best friend if everything goes south. IMHO - it's one of the most effective tools in the box. @RayRapp - I would point out that I'm not reviewing the specialist activities or tasks, more specifically the hazards introduced or faced by, the contractor, as a result of being on our site.
RayRapp  
#11 Posted : 22 January 2014 12:57:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Mick I agree that reviewing sub-contractors documentation including RAMS is one of many ways to ensure that are competent and have a SSOW for the task. Should have added this to my original post. However, my point was that there are exceptions and even reviewing RAMS is not without its problems. Ray
firesafety101  
#12 Posted : 22 January 2014 13:35:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I occasionally do site safety inspections and as far as RAMS are concerned first I look to see if every contractor has provided their RAMS then I look to compare the written MS with the actual method work being carried out. If there are any deviations I stop the work for a chat with the worker involved.
JohnW  
#13 Posted : 22 January 2014 15:48:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

Like Firesafety101 above, I regularly review contractors' RAMS for my customers. This is because some contractors, especially some working on building sites, will come along armed with a folder of risk assessments printed off the internet, with no attempt to make them specific to the actual jobs they will be doing or for the tools/equipment they will be using. I occasionally provide CDM-C services for 'small' builders and I only take this on if they also give me the job of being their safety adviser - this gives me regular access to their site, to see the sub-contractors working and review/inspect their working practices and how that compares with their RAMS. Any issues can then be dealt with quickly, and we re-write RAMS where appropriate.
Victor Meldrew  
#14 Posted : 22 January 2014 19:21:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Victor Meldrew

Currently working with a client, contractor under CDM, who is being prosecuted as a result of an accident involving a sub-contractor they employed. Main issue is RAMS.
Canopener  
#15 Posted : 22 January 2014 19:48:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

It strikes me that merely reviewing a RAMS is a fairly blunt instrument in the pursuit of safety. Surely there is more to ensuring 'safety' than this? Looking at how they are actually working seems a more appropriate and effective method to me, rather than being passed a load (and it could be a mountain) of paperwork to 'review'.
J0L0  
#16 Posted : 22 January 2014 21:46:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
J0L0

Thank you for your comments and discussion. However, coming back to the main topic and summarizing your posts. You are not aware that PC was prosecuted after reviewing contractors RAMS, when they were found unsuitable by local enforcing authority after accident.
Frank Hallett  
#17 Posted : 22 January 2014 21:51:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Frank Hallett

Sneaky! Bit more detail required JOLO What was the event that got the LA to get involved please? Frank Hallett
martyn  
#18 Posted : 23 January 2014 11:00:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
martyn

Surely if this is a Construction project and the CDM regulations apply the enforcing authority would be the HSE. If the LA is the enforcing authority there would be no PC.
JohnW  
#19 Posted : 23 January 2014 12:27:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

Canopener wrote:
It strikes me that merely reviewing a RAMS is a fairly blunt instrument in the pursuit of safety. Surely there is more to ensuring 'safety' than this? Looking at how they are actually working seems a more appropriate and effective method to me, rather than being passed a load (and it could be a mountain) of paperwork to 'review'.
Well yes, I was saying that in #13. A 'review' could involve ripping up (ok, dismissing) the contractors RAMs and starting from scratch working out his methods, checking his equipment and materials, confirming training of team, ensuring appropriate PPE and other controls .... :o)
Canopener  
#20 Posted : 23 January 2014 15:02:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

JohnW wrote:
Canopener wrote:
It strikes me that merely reviewing a RAMS is a fairly blunt instrument in the pursuit of safety. Surely there is more to ensuring 'safety' than this? Looking at how they are actually working seems a more appropriate and effective method to me, rather than being passed a load (and it could be a mountain) of paperwork to 'review'.
Well yes, I was saying that in #13. A 'review' could involve ripping up (ok, dismissing) the contractors RAMs and starting from scratch working out his methods, checking his equipment and materials, confirming training of team, ensuring appropriate PPE and other controls .... :o)
Well yes, but I was only really reiterating what I had already said myself in #8; only in a different way! We aren't at odds on this. Are we?
JohnW  
#21 Posted : 24 January 2014 15:52:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

Canopener wrote:
Well yes, but I was only really reiterating what I had already said myself in #8; only in a different way!
Indeed, my brain didn't notice that you were author of both postings.
Canopener wrote:
We aren't at odds on this. Are we?
Not at all, I think we are very much of the same opinion on this matter. John
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