Rank: Super forum user 
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Dear all
I have today visited a site whereby the PC issues a permit (not a permit to work) which basically ensure that a permit to work system is implemented by their sub contractor. I have raised concerns over this method and objected to this practice. Can anyone out there provide some technical advice on why this should not take place in such a way? Any help on this would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
J
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Rank: Super forum user 
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J
A PTW is basically a "permission" to allow specified work to take place, with certain precautions taken, in a specified manner.
It is not a substitute for a risk assessment, method statement or SSOW, but can refer to all of these.
PTW's are normally used for high risk activities as well as the RAMS etc, e.g. confined space, electical work, hot works, etc.
Don't understand whet the PC is geeting from their approach?
Jonty
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Rank: Super forum user
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Hi Jonty,
Thanks for the response,
I have put my question out there as basic as possible to draw best possible response. I think my main question is, what legal responsibilities do PCs have to sub contractors (non construction work). Also, the legal frame work surrounding PTW. And lastly, reason why the PC should have a PTW system in place on their site.
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Rank: Super forum user
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jarsmith - could you tell us what your role is here please/
Are you in an advisory role? If so, to which of the possible CDM parties.
Also, why the change of focus in your 2nd post from a PC "issuing" a "Permit" to a Sub Contractor to identifying that you're looking to clarify "what legal responsibilities do PCs have to sub contractors (non construction work)"? The "non-construction" bit is very confusing as I can't see a need for a PtW system there at all - but I'm sure someone can - do you mean some form of Contractor appointment sustem?
There is no explicit legal frame-work for PtW systems that I'm aware of - HSG250 will give you a great deal of what you're looking for on that. Additionally, a general search on the HSE website using "Permit to Work" will turn up a range of documents on PtW for differing applications.
The PC might wish to institute a PtW system to provide additional, formal, independantly provided controls on activities that the PC considers need them.
Frank Hallett
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Rank: Super forum user
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Frank Hallett wrote:jarsmith - could you tell us what your role is here please/
Are you in an advisory role? (YES) If so, to which of the possible CDM parties (NON CONSTRUCTION WORK SO CDM NOT APPLICABLE).
Also, why the change of focus in your 2nd post from a PC "issuing" a "Permit" to a Sub Contractor to identifying that you're looking to clarify "what legal responsibilities do PCs have to sub contractors (non construction work)"? (THIS WAS SPECIFIED IN ORDER TO STOP CONFUSION) The "non-construction" bit is very confusing as I can't see a need for a PtW system there at all - but I'm sure someone can - do you mean some form of Contractor appointment sustem? (DEFINITELY REQUIRE A PERMIT AS THERE IS A CONFINED SPACE ENTRY)
There is no explicit legal frame-work for PtW systems that I'm aware of - HSG250 will give you a great deal of what you're looking for on that. Additionally, a general search on the HSE website using "Permit to Work" will turn up a range of documents on PtW for differing applications. (LEGAL FRAME WORK SO FAR - GENERAL DUTY OF CARE, HASAW ACT 1974 SSOW?)
The PC might wish to institute a PtW system to provide additional, formal, independantly provided controls on activities that the PC considers need them. (TOTALLY AGREE)
Frank Hallett I have answered your questions above however, my reason for asking questions to this audience is for me to formally write to the PC and outline the legal duties the PC has in implementing this, ensuring site safety for sub contractors and monitoring site activities. If anyone has any information that I could use for this purpose it would be great.
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Rank: Super forum user
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OK jarsmith - thank you for the very clear responses to my questions.
If it's a CS activity then it is quite likely that it could include one or more aspect of CDM - even if only the Client and the Contractor.
You asked for an "explicit framework for PtW" - there still isn't one! You have identified the general duty under HSWA and omitted to mention the CS Regs which are explicit to your question but still do not legislate for a PtW process.
I hope that you resolve your problem satisfactorily.
Frank Hallett
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