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RLC  
#1 Posted : 14 February 2014 13:10:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RLC

Hi All
Firstly not sure if this H&S Advisor is a member of IOSH, since they do not have anything mentioned after their name etc.

This issue relates to one of our clients, who we are in a long term contract with. Our director and several of their mangers etc dislike each other. Which I think is the main cause of this.

This is an ongoing saga where this Health & Safety Advisor, is trying to use H&S as a weapon, but at all attempts, when it has actual come down to Health & Safety, they have failed time after time.

The latest dispute is that this Health & Safety advisor, is stating that I cannot use a contractor for health & safety reasons. This I presume is that they think it will have a cost impact on us.

The contractor in question has a 100% safety record and all their operatives are competent to undertake their duties. They also have many clients, including government departments.

I have requested on many occasions for information as to what health & safety reasons there are for not allowing them to be used (I know there is none).

This health and safety advisor, cannot answer or give me any reasons, but will try and pass it over and start mentioning unrelated issues, which have nothing to do with this contractor.

Even though I do think this Health & Safety Advisor is being controlled in what he is doing by his senior management. As a Health & Safety professional, I surely think he has to take responsibility for what he is doing and held accountable for his actions of lack off.

If he is a member of IOSH is there a procedure where I can report this person, better still is there someone at IOSH who on my behalf can request this information, I am happy to pass on all correspondence relating to this and previous issues if required.

On previous disputes, which there has been many, we have involved our H&S Consultants (One of the biggest in the uk) and also a Health & safety Law expert, to show they were wrong and even then they just stated to make it a legal matter, which would mean we pay, and the tax payers pay for them.

All advice is welcome
peter gotch  
#2 Posted : 14 February 2014 13:21:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

RLC

If you ring Membership you can find out whether the Advisor is a member of IOSH.

If yes might be in breach of IOSH's Code of Conduct, and you could complain to the IOSH Disciplinary Cttee.
Frank Hallett  
#3 Posted : 14 February 2014 13:34:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Frank Hallett

Hi RLC - not a pretty picture that you've painted!

I've read through your post a couple of times and have difficulty in definitively getting the various relationships clear; perhaps that may not be helpful in generating responses.

To comment directly on the information provided seems to me to be trying to dig a hole in a swamp!

As far as I can see, there are only a limited range of choices here:-
If the culprit H&S Adviser is a member of a professional body, you could attempt to invoke any relevant Code of Conduct - as you're trying to do - remember that they may not be IOSH but another body. &/Or
Pay the money and get your H&S Consultants to sort it out - remember that they're not in business to do you any favours. &/Or
Arrange an internal meeting with your Directors and get them to decide what they wish to be done.

I shall look forward to seeing this one develop!

Frank Hallett
westonphil  
#4 Posted : 14 February 2014 13:54:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
westonphil

The key point is here "This issue relates to one of our clients, who we are in a long term contract with. Our director and several of their mangers etc dislike each other. Which I think is the main cause of this."

If you want to sort out something then sort out the management, who create the environment. If the advisor was allowing something that created an unreasonable risk then I could see your argument but if they are mearly preventing a job going ahead then that is not a H&S issue and instead it is a management issue, and should be sorted out as such.

You accuse him of using H&S as a weapon and yet you seem to want to do the same by going to his institution if he has one. It's a local management issue, so sort it out locally and within the management.

Regards.



CarlT  
#5 Posted : 14 February 2014 16:29:00(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
CarlT

Have your Director present your evidence to their Director and ask why you are not able to use said contractor. It seems from one of your comments that the client is a govenrment organisation so if your Director doesn't get anywhere with their Director he could then go to.... you get the idea.

Alternatively, play their game, get another contractor and have the client approve them before you use them.

Even if their H&S Advisor is a member of IOSH I doubt making a complaint to IOSH would improve the relationship you have with them, probably the reverse in fact.
RLC  
#6 Posted : 16 February 2014 23:01:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RLC

Thanks for all the comments.

Statements from this H&S Advisor - to their own senior management or any third party person in meetings to try and make out company look bad. This is where i have to respond and of course it makes this person look bad, so where you would think they would go a read up on Health & Safety oh no, the attacks continue, but just get more outlandish.

We are unsafe, your operatives do not use Portable RCDs - Talking about Painters, who have no electrical equipment - we do use portable RCDs when we have too and have a strong system in place, this H&S Advisor was fully aware of our procedures weeks before making these comments.

We are unsafe, we allow our operatives to use domestic step ladders - All our ladders are either Cat 1 or (old Cat 2) New BSEN 131 for Light Trade or Heavy DIY, all ladders are checked etc. Works taking place in a domestic property. Same again fully aware we use BSEN 131 steps.

Email battle regarding confined spaces - This H&S Advisor comments, It has a door on it so it can not be a confined space. Hmm

No hot work paperwork, so it means there is no safe system in place. Did not bother to look at the risk assessment or method statement for the works.

Gas bottle not tied on at the top of a 4 story scaffold - Good eye sight, since he did not even go and look how the bottle was strapped on. Worked it out from the ground.

No edge protection on a flat roof - rails in place, safety harness in use, marshal in place at ground level and fenced area. work was re felting, which had to overlap the roof - Comments we are unsafe.

No brick guards on a scaffold, so potential for materials to fall to the ground - referring to 2 x plastic bags which in his photo, you could see, just a bit of one above the toe boards, containing some PPE and of cuts of felt.

They were upset that i would not use their site specific tick sheet paper for our property works.
This included, please state if you are working above open water, well the plumber could be over the toilet system and another was are you working next to a high speed road, ah, no we are in a building. Seem to get the hump that i did not use his paperwork.

This is just a few things that i have to deal with, have plenty more.

Cheers,

Frank Hallett  
#7 Posted : 17 February 2014 09:36:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Frank Hallett

Hi RLC

I wasn't going to comment any further but your last post seems so really desperate that it seemed appropriate to provide some additional support.

First, my view is not really changed from my earlier post; I can only stress the need to prepare a thorough, documented [with pictures refuting alleged breaches of procedure or safety where possible] case to present to your Directors internally. Ultimately, they are the ones who must decide how they will respond to the Client/PC [still not sure which!] Safety Adviser.

I'm assuming here that you have no explicit "line management" role in addition to your H&S role?

A few of your latest comments do give cause for serious concern as to competence of the subject Safety Adviser, and you appear to be letting this get way too personal - and I do know that it can be extremely difficult for it not to be personal.

I would attempt to take a couple of steps back and gain as independent a view of the overall situation as is possible. You have identified that your organisation retains "H&S Consultants (One of the biggest in the uk) and also a Health & safety Law expert"; so may I suggest that you should make them earn their money and provide the level of advice that you appear to require but currently aren't getting!

Alternatively, you could go outside of your existing provider and get a genuinely independent view [probably cheaper and more thorough as well because there are no conflicts of interest] that could then be the basis of the Director Report that I've already mentioned - this Director Report is key to what happens next as the Directors are ultimately responsible for ensuring an acceptable standard of H&S within your business!

Good luck Frank Hallett
peter gotch  
#8 Posted : 17 February 2014 13:40:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

RLC

"No edge protection on a flat roof - rails in place, safety harness in use, marshal in place at ground level and fenced area. work was re felting, which had to overlap the roof - Comments we are unsafe."

You can get free standing edge protection with standards that can be lifted one at a time to enable edge protection to remain in place when felting to overlap the roof. Illustrated in HSG33 and has been around for well over 20 years.
RLC  
#9 Posted : 26 February 2014 20:26:45(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RLC

Thanks again for the replies,

Latest Info:
My director has informed me that he has been told by letter today from this H&S Advisor's Director, that my actions in contacting their Health & safety advisor is being classed as harassment and as such they can suspend me for this. (This is me asking for why they have suspended a contractor) still waiting on a response.

So they are saying that if keep asking them for the reasons for suspending this contractor, they will try and have me suspended. Hmm add blackmail to the list.

As normal lots more to this, and i do not wish to spend hours writing about it, so will just update when i can.

Cheers,
RLC  
#10 Posted : 26 February 2014 20:32:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RLC

peter gotch wrote:
RLC

"No edge protection on a flat roof - rails in place, safety harness in use, marshal in place at ground level and fenced area. work was re felting, which had to overlap the roof - Comments we are unsafe."

You can get free standing edge protection with standards that can be lifted one at a time to enable edge protection to remain in place when felting to overlap the roof. Illustrated in HSG33 and has been around for well over 20 years.


No issues with scaffolding with all our other clients, except this client will only pay a set rate, which does not include anything except basic scaffold, and we will only get paid for a basic scaffold, they will not pay for anything else, its classed as inclusive to the set rate.
Even if i request edge protection to a large roof, they will say its inclusive with the price of the basic scaffold erected to gain access to the roof. If i then have a long battle and bring in health & safety, then they might give a little.
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