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kofi17  
#1 Posted : 16 March 2014 22:03:14(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kofi17

Hi guys

Could a principal contractor who has been appointed to be in charge of a pool of contractors appoint another principal contractor? What could warrant such a move?

Regards
Max
paulw71  
#2 Posted : 17 March 2014 09:22:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paulw71

Hi

No the Principal Contractor is appointed by the Client only. The Principal Contractor, once appointed, cannot appoint another PC to fulfill his role.

regards
firesafety101  
#3 Posted : 17 March 2014 10:01:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Under CDM there can be just one PC per project.
Steve e ashton  
#4 Posted : 17 March 2014 12:15:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

Firesafety: I think the 'only one PC per project ' is a widespread myth. (Although I guess it often depends on how you define the scope of the 'project'.

I would note that Reg 14 (3) specifically requires clients to ensure that appointments 'are changed or renewed as necessary to ensure that there is at all times until the end of the construction phase a CDM co-ordinator and principal contractor"... For me this is quite a clear indication that during drafting, it was foreseen there will be occasions when one PC exits and another comes in. Maybe trades change, or whatever.

So in my opinion - it is possible and legal to have several PCs - but the coordination arrangements must be able to seperate them by time or space so each understands the scope of the 'project' they are appointed to....

I don't think the ACoP is helpful in suggesting at para 73 that there can be only one PC at any one time... This has turned into the myth that there can be only one PC on the project (full stop).

I recently worked on a major project with up to six PCs working in different places at different times. No problem provided the co-ordination of activities (required by CDM) was effective. HSE seemed happy enough with the arrangements.

BUT I would generally agree with Paul in his answer to the OP that a PC (as understood in CDM Regs) should never be appointing another PC (as understood in CDM Regs).... It is a client responsibility. But this answer only applies if we are all talking the same language... Does the original post confuse the contracting company (which most on here would call the contractor in line with CDM Regs definitions) with the individual workman (also called a 'contractor' in some places)... In this situation then - we're not answering the question that was asked. If a man is asked to manage a team of workmen and decides he can't hack it (or wants to take a holiday) then - why shouldn't he help the client or appoint someone to take his place? We need to be certain everyone is clear on the language being used before we offer answers which may be misleading or simply wrong. We might think that using the term principal contractor in this situation is misuse of the term - but stranger things have happened!
firesafety101  
#5 Posted : 17 March 2014 12:20:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

OKaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy so I should have added "at any one time".

Picky or what?

You can have more than one Client for a single project.
firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 17 March 2014 12:20:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

and the Client has to appoint the PC, whatever the situation.
peter gotch  
#7 Posted : 17 March 2014 14:17:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Fire Safety

I've got one project on the go which currently has several PCs doing various advance works. We have to manage the interfaces by geography and/or time. This is not particularly difficult when you've got project route corridors extending to ~60km.

I will this week be submitting third F10 notification this month.

As Steve says the one PC only is a myth that flies in the face of the Interpretation Act. Unless the circumstances dictate the contrary, the singular includes the plural.

Hence CDM Reg 14(2) reads "......the client shall appoint a person [or persons] "the principal contractor[s])....."

....and yes, I know what it says in paragraph 154 of CDM ACOP. But HSE cannot use an ACOP to override statutory interpretation.
firesafety101  
#8 Posted : 17 March 2014 15:17:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Do you notify using the HSE intranet form?

If you do you will only ever be allowed one PC per project.

I think you must have notified a project on multiple sites or a new project each time you notify?

When you notify again is it to update or to notify a new project? Try the extranet and see if you can use more than one PC.

I am very interested in what you are doing.

In wonder if the new HS2 will have more than one PC?
peter gotch  
#9 Posted : 17 March 2014 17:33:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

FireSafety - no I use word document F10 which is signed, pdf'd and emailed to local HSE office. The online system is simply not fit for purpose on projects such as this.

If it goes ahead there will almost certainly be more than one PC for HS2 as it's packaged up regionally. In the meantime it will also have numerous PCs for various advance works, such as ground and archaeological investigations, Refurb and Demo surveys and lots of ecological works.
Steve e ashton  
#10 Posted : 17 March 2014 17:47:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

And the client is a special purpose vehicle - Comments from the Chairman David Higgins in the news today. But as client for the project, try telling HMG to get their fingers out and stop making design decisions. I foresee a very difficult (steel) road ahead.... And try telling Network Rail they are not also a client. Or the County Councils etc etc... Whoever 'acts' as the client on this one had better be prepared for some very robust defense of their position! Even with signed memoranda of agreement.... I do not envy David Higgins his role (although he appears to have survived the Olympic project and come out smelling OK, so maybe he has got the right stuff!).
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