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HSE_Steve  
#1 Posted : 17 March 2014 09:59:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
HSE_Steve

Good Morning Everyone,

I was after canvassing some views if possible;

I've recently been doing a lot of COSHH assessments, and I seem to be finding more and more 'discrepancies' within them - I've put it in quotes in case its just me missing something.

For example, I am currently doing one for a product with Hazard Phrase H304: May be fatal if swallowed and enters airways. However, in the 'most important symptoms' section it say Ingestion - There may be soreness and redness of the throat. Nausea and stomach pain may occur. There may be vomiting.

So, on the one hand I don't want to be alarmist and write on the assessment, DANGER of DEATH etc if this isn't realistic, however I don't want to not mention something which is. As a non-chemist, whats the sufficient level of investigation I should do to satisfy myself of the real dangers and create a realistic, relevant and useful COSHH assessment.

For background, I am the only HSE bod in an organisation of 45 people. We use approximately 60 different substances (I'm desperately trying to reduce this as the overlap in products is unbelievable) and COSHH is obviously only one element of the job, so I simply haven't got time to spend days and days investigating each product.

Thanks in advance, thoughts much appreciated.
Kate.  
#2 Posted : 17 March 2014 10:59:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Kate.

Does the sds mention pulmonary oedema?
HSE_Steve  
#3 Posted : 17 March 2014 11:06:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
HSE_Steve

Hi Kate,

it doesn't no.

We have the H304: May be fatal if swallowed or enters the airways and the R65: Harmful, May cause lung damage if swallowed.

then section 4.2. most important symptoms which just says, soreness, redness, nausea and stomach pain.

Am I to assume that whilst possible, the fatality scenario is very unlikely? If so what am I basing this on?
jay  
#4 Posted : 17 March 2014 11:59:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

The CLP/GHS Hazard Statements, due to its proposed use globally, have internationally agreed terminology. That is why in many cases there is difference between the old Safety Phrases and new Hazard statements. H304 is about aspiration toxicity and there is only one category in this, i.e Category 1

The information in Section 4.2 is about about First-Aid measures--and such a accident scenario will depend upon how the chemical is used.

Therefore, if such a scenario is most unlikely i.e. ingesting it or it entering the airways, the risk is low.
You need to bear in mind that the same SDS is provided by the supplier, irrespective whether one is using 10 milliliteres or 10000 litres of the same chemical.


The classification guidance for substances "R65 Harmful: may cause lung damage if swallowed" is:-
Liquid substances and preparations presenting an aspiration hazard in humans because of their low viscosity:
(a) for substances and preparations containing aliphatic, alicyclic and aromatic hydrocarbons in a total concentration equal to or greater than 10% and having:
(i) a flow time of less than 30 seconds in a 3 mm ISO cup according to ISO 2431 relating to Paints and varnishes - Determination of flow time by use of flow cups,14 or
(ii) a kinematic viscosity measured by a calibrated glass capillary viscometer in accordance with ISO 3104/3105 of less than 7 x 10-6 m2/s at 40°C (ISO 3104, relating to Petroleum products - Transparent and opaque liquids - Determination of kinematic viscosity and calculation of dynamic viscosity15; ISO 3105, relating to Glass capillary kinematic viscometers - Specifications and operating instructions),16 or
(iii) a kinematic viscosity derived from measurements of rotational viscometry in accordance with ISO 321917 of less than 7 x 10-6 m2/s at 40°C;

Note that substances and preparations meeting these criteria need not be classified if they have a mean surface tension greater than 33 mN/m at 25°C as measured by the du Nouy tensiometer or by the test methods shown in Commission Regulation No 440/2008; or

(b) for substances and preparations based on practical experience in humans.


The classification for H304, "Hazard category for aspiration toxicity" for substances is;-
Category =Category 1

Criteria is:-
Substances known to cause human aspiration toxicity hazards or to be regarded as if they cause human aspiration toxicity hazard
A substance is classified in Category 1:
(a) based on reliable and good quality human evidence
or
(b) if it is a hydrocarbon and has a kinematic viscosity of 20,5 mm2/s or less, measured at
40 oC.
Note:
Substances in Category 1 include but are not limited to certain hydrocarbons, turpentine and pine oil.


HSE_Steve  
#5 Posted : 17 March 2014 12:55:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
HSE_Steve

Hi Jay,

many thanks for the time taken for the reply, and I think this actually gets to the heart of the problem... I take it you have either a chemistry / biology background but to me most of what was written there may as well have been a foreign language - I really can't relate what was written to someone using a 275ml trigger spray bottle occasionally.

I guess the question is, as the person writing the COSHH assessment - should I know? If I should, then I would hazard a guess that there are a lot of people out there in my position who perhaps shouldn't be.

thanks.
chris.packham  
#6 Posted : 17 March 2014 15:55:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

There is an awful lot of people out there who (a) simply do not have the knowledge to interpret the data shown in the safety data sheet and (b) have not yet grasped the concept that the safety data sheet does not provide the information you need for a risk assessment for when you actually use the chemical. Nor is this a primary task for the safety data sheet. Recognising this REACH requires the supplier to provide Exposure Scenarios that should provide information so that you can use the chemical safely for a specific purpose. Presumably these will provide the necessary information when you mix the chemical with another, react it with another, contaminate it in the performance of a particular task, etc., etc. However, the very few Exposure Scenarios that I have seen raise doubts about how effective they really will be, particularly since these are provided by the manufacture of a specific substance for that substance and the end user may be dealing with a formulation containing several different substances, possibly from different manufacturers, each with their own Exposure Scenario for that task and their substance. The potential for confusion seems to me to be quite large!
Chris
HSE_Steve  
#7 Posted : 18 March 2014 10:39:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
HSE_Steve

Hi,

thanks for the replies - I'd like to add a further question;

I'm a chartered member of IOSH, relatively experienced in high hazard environments and I would consider I'm quite good at my job. However, if I understand correctly Chris's response would suggest that he would consider from my initial question and response, that I in his (a) category, i.e. someone who 'simply does not have the knowledge to interpret the data shown in the safety data sheet.

I wouldn't disagree with this statement, and as Chris also stated their are probably a lot of other people in the same boat. So, in practical terms, what options do I have? I know you can contract out COSHH provision but I've always heard bad things about these as they dont apply it to your situation, what other alternatives are there?

thanks.
leadbelly  
#8 Posted : 18 March 2014 10:46:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
leadbelly

Steve

If you don't have the required knowledge and experience, you should use a competent occupational hygienist (like me!). You can find a list of hygienists here: http://www.bohs.org/OHServices-directory/

Beware anyone who claims to be able to carry out a COSHH assessment without visiting the site and observing the tasks to be assessed.

LB
jay  
#9 Posted : 18 March 2014 12:06:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Whilst I have complete respect for Chris regarding his specialism on effetcs of chemicals on skin & the lack of apparently credible information in SDS's for skin related issues, one can undertake COSHH assessments without involving occupational hygienists all the time as long as you know the limit of your own competence.
chris.packham  
#10 Posted : 18 March 2014 15:00:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

In my statement I was not intending to suggest that any one particular person would not be competent to carry out a risk assessment for COSHH, particularly where skin exposure might be an issue. It is all about competency and knowing your limits. Some situations will be very simple and not require much knowledge about chemicals and the skin. Others can be incredibly complex and test even my knowledge, requiring me to consult toxicological data and perhaps speak with a toxicologist.

As it happens many of our new clients only approach us when they have an existing skin issue and are seeking help to resolve this. In many cases I find that what they have done in order to prevent the skin issue has actually contributed to this, simply because they have not been aware of some of the complexities of how our skin interacts with the (working) environment.

We have a saying in house that: "The danger arises when you don't know that you don't know."

This is the issue for me in many cases. Just how much training on skin management is included in the NEBOSH diploma? You can actually qualify as an occupational hygienist without knowing anything much about the skin as the training does not include a mandatory module on skin management. And is the training correct? In a recent article published in a health and safety journal on the NEBOSH module there were several fundamental errors. Even the HSE website contains errors, such as the provision of single use natural rubber latex gloves for protection against solvents and thinners in a paint spray booth!

Chris
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