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Can anyone help me with legislation about using hands free kits whilst driving? My boss has just shown me an article about someone who was using their hands free whilst driving a company car and was involved in an accident. This accident wasn't their fault but the company narrowly escaped action, as the person was on a personal call.
I've looked at the 'Driving at Work' INDG382' from the HSE but that doesn't cover using hands free.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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In my opinion hands free is only OK up to a point. It is all right when talking/listening as long as it does not become a distraction. Which it sometimes does. I have driven past my motorway junction in the past so it must be a distraction.
If you have complete hands free where you can open and close calls with voice that's better than fiddling with small mobile phone buttons and lists of contacts.
Compare this with changing a CD or radio station, or even a bit of road rage when arguing the toss with a driver who has just infuriated you with a silly manoeuvre.
If involved in an accident and Police can prove you were on the phone at the time, even if not your fault I think you will carry some of the blame.
Why not ask your insurers their opinion?
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Rank: Forum user
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The direct gov website ( though I think it is called something else now) has guidance on this and it when at work hands free - though not illegal generally - can be seen as a H&S high risk and therefore a company should have a risk assessment about using phones while driving and it also implies that the control measure is not to use phone whether hands free or not.
I'm now thinking it was another website i seen this in. If you google you'll get it. There are also some cases where employer was held responsible - remembering that the corporate manslaughter.culpable homicide has a basis on driving at work causing their of all road fatalities.
apologies for not remembering it has been some time since I read this.
Lilian
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Rank: Super forum user
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Hands free sets are acceptable and using them will not lead to a prosecution per se unlike using a normal handset but whatever you do will driving you are expect to be in control of the vehicle. So if there is an accident and there is evidence that the driver was fiddling with the controls of a hands free set( or changing a CD, or reading a map) then they can be prosecuted for careless driving. Even if they are not involved in an accident people can be stopped for careless driving if they are seen doing any of these things by the police and the police think that it is distracting them even eating an apple. See http://www.dailymail.co....-fined-eating-apple.htmlFor overall guidance see https://www.gov.uk/using...nes-when-driving-the-law
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Road Traffic Act offence - the Police can prosecute any driver they reasonably believe is not in full and proper control of a motor vehicle regardless of whether the vehicles driver had been involved in an accident.
Saw a driver this morning in a very animated hands free conversation pulled over at a VoSA check point - the Police Officer did not look amused by the driver gesticulating they were hands free so what had they done wrong.
The employer aspect comes from their company policy, or lack of, regarding control of employees activities in company vehicles or during work time.
Lots of debate in previous forum posts around the issue of driving and mobile phones
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Rank: Super forum user
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Road Traffic Act offence - the Police can prosecute any driver they reasonably believe is not in full and proper control of a motor vehicle regardless of whether the vehicles driver had been involved in an accident.
Saw a driver this morning in a very animated hands free conversation pulled over at a VoSA check point - the Police Officer did not look amused by the driver gesticulating they were hands free so what had they done wrong.
The employer aspect comes from their company policy, or lack of, regarding control of employees activities in company vehicles or during work time.
Lots of debate in previous forum posts around the issue of driving and mobile phones
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Rank: Forum user
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tillybelle wrote:Can anyone help me with legislation about using hands free kits whilst driving? . Yes its the only legal way to make a call while driving https://www.gov.uk/using...nes-when-driving-the-law are you going to say due to elf and safety you cant use hands free and you cant hold the summer fair or play conkers etc
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Hi
In what publication was the article, so we can also read what was said. It is either illegal to use this kit or not, surly.
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Rank: Forum user
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tillybelle wrote: This accident wasn't their fault but the company narrowly escaped action, as the person was on a personal call. quote] There is a bit i have found which would relate to this A company can be found guilty if they let there staff use mobile phones --- its the offence of ''causing or permitting'' Employers The law includes an offence of "causing or permitting" a driver to use a hand-held phone while driving. This can apply to employers who will be guilty of an offence if they require or permit their staff who drive for work, to use a hand-held mobile phone while driving. Employers would be unwise to respond by supplying their staff with hands-free kits. Even if the use of these while driving does not contravene the specific ban on hand-held phones, employers could fall foul of health and safety laws if an investigation determined the use of the phone contributed to an accident. found here on RSPCA site http://www.rospa.com/roa...ledriving/factsheet.aspx
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Rank: New forum user
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Thanks everyone for the information. I'll discuss the situation with my MD and let him decide what he wants to do.
Thanks again.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Note that piece from the RoSPA website is describing what RoSPA think. They would like a ban on hands free sets as well and they are implying that an employer might be liable if they issued a hands free set. That is just what RoSPA think. There does not seem to be any current case law about this and this is not guidance from the government, which carries more weight than what RoSPA’s opinion.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Traffic cops are just jobs worths.
OTT enforcement of trivia. Keeps them in a job.
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Rank: Forum user
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Traffic cops are just jobs worths.
OTT enforcement of trivia. Keeps them in a job
Some might say the same of health and safety practitioners.
Graham (not ex traffic cop)
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Rank: Super forum user
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Using hands-free whilst driving is probably the only excpetion I take on my policy on keeping H&S "real".
Yes it does seem pedantic and nannying, but you just can't get around the fact that speaking to a person who is remote to where you are, is a distraction (the extent of which ios clearly up for debate).
I like lots of dangerous things, I enjoy pushing the boundaires in life in general, but I don't use hands free (ever since I took the wrong turning on a roundabout because I was taking a work call and was responding to a tough technical query - one that I had to thing hard about!).
My current company prohibits the use of mobile phones whilst driving. Full stop. We have seen a reduction in minor scrapes and it's a policy I support.
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Without going down the road of "I can remember when..." stories, our cars are becoming more and more complex.
Knowing how to drive is basic information. Turning the engine on can be more complex in some models.
There's no issue with in-car technology, it's the users that have a problem. Were you in control of your vehicle at the time, sir/madam?
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Rank: Super forum user 
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A Kurdziel wrote:Note that piece from the RoSPA website is describing what RoSPA think. They would like a ban on hands free sets as well and they are implying that an employer might be liable if they issued a hands free set. That is just what RoSPA think. There does not seem to be any current case law about this and this is not guidance from the government, which carries more weight than what RoSPA’s opinion. Yeh but................... They have research to back their stance People here saying hands free is OK are just using their own personal opinions; much as I was doing (to try to illustrate the point) in the other post about speeding. Several studies have shown that using hands free is worse than being over the drink drive limit.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Chris42 wrote:Hi
In what publication was the article, so we can also read what was said. It is either illegal to use this kit or not, surly. Surely not. There's lot's you can do legally in your own free time but which is effectively prohibited when at work. Changing lightbulbs by climbing on a chair. Doing a spot of DIY without wearing a hard-hat. Cleaning your upstairs windows without a work-at-height risk assessment. There clearly are things that are defacto (even if not dejure) banned at work and allowed when not-at-work.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Rank: Super forum user
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We took a lot of time revising our driving for work policy. It prohibits the use of mobiles in keeping with the law. When I issued the draft to the Executive Team for comment I also prohibited the use of hands free kits and cited some fairly good research that shows it is a distraction and increases the risk of an incident.
I was told that people could not do without their phones for an hour or more on long drives (all around Ireland), I reminded them that they regularly flew to Brussels on business and had no access to a phone for those periods! Unfortunately that didn't fly (small play on words) - result - hand free could be used but we recommended that they weren't!?
Had to compromise on that one!
J
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tillybelle wrote:Can anyone help me with legislation about using hands free kits whilst driving? My boss has just shown me an article about someone who was using their hands free whilst driving a company car and was involved in an accident. This accident wasn't their fault but the company narrowly escaped action, as the person was on a personal call. Quote:
Tilly - the article is just plain wrong. A personal call is nothing to do with the employer. A non-fault accident wouldnt be blamed on the employee, even if he was on a hands free, or the employer.
Its entirely legal to use hands free, so long as you are driving with due care and attention. As pointed out its the same for changing a CD, using the radio.
There is no law, and as far as I know not even case law regarding employers being liable for hands free use, I suspect a simple policy of encouraging drivers to only use hands free when its safe will protect the employer, driving safely is still seen as the personal responsibility of the driver.
That said, police forces are taking more interest following an accident in how businesses manage their employees road safety, so employers are also perfectly at liberty to ban hands free to protect employees from their own stupidity. (see Jakes comment above) A very cautious approach, but it all very depends on how leadership want to play it.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I shall jump on this bandwagon and pose a question; how is chatting on a handsfree phone any different to chatting to a person sitting next to you or in the back seat? Surely that would be more of a distraction as people tend to look at who they are talking too!
If this was against the law, then why do they come fitted to most new cars as standard?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Mr.Flibble wrote:I shall jump on this bandwagon and pose a question; how is chatting on a handsfree phone any different to chatting to a person sitting next to you or in the back seat? Surely that would be more of a distraction as people tend to look at who they are talking too!
If this was against the law, then why do they come fitted to most new cars as standard? In answer to the first question: someone sitting next to you can see when you are starting to merge across multiple lanes of fast-moving traffic, negotiating a majorly complex junction etc. Talking to a person in the car is very different to talking to the telephone, and the argument that they are just the same is ridiculous in the extreme, in my opinion. The second paragraph is a straw man - it hasn't been claimed that they are against the law. Our phones-when-driving policy just says don't do it, hands free or not. This is with the full support of the MD, but I still get grumbling and complaints from other directors, who apparently cannot be without an active telephone even for short car journeys. The most vocal opponent of the policy swims at the same pool I swim at occasionally. I have made the point that it is possible to spend time in the pool without access to the phone, but apparently that's different to spending time in the car without the phone.
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Rank: Super forum user
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So my aged mother who did not drive would know when to stop speaking? And the two youngsters arguing in the back of the car would stop when they realised that they were distracting me? If you live in that world I have to say it isn't one I recognise. With the hands fee if I need to stop the conversation I can simply terminate the call. At least I am in control.
Having cast a critical eye over some of the studies that show speaking on a hands free system as being more distracting compared with an conversation with a passenger and applied the SIGN criteria about the validity of the conclusions of the study I have to say that for me I have yet to see any convincing evidence of this.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I fail to see the problem. For a start, using a hand-held mobile phone, or similar device, is illegal when driving. It is also illegal if you are supervising a learner drive. That leaves operating a hands-free mobile phone, for which no specific legislation exists. So then you have to decide if using such would distract you, sufficiently enough to be a factor in the causation of accidents? Does driving while performing other tasks affect your driving ability? The available research (google) suggests that the area of driving most affected is reaction time. You decide. Get it wrong and your life could be forfeit, worse, anothers life could be forfeit. http://www.roadsafetylib...&id=40&Itemid=68
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Rank: Super forum user
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How on earth did we survive only a decade ago without mobiles
In your whole life, how many important calls have you taken?
I bet its less than can be counted on one hand, everything else is your self perceived importance.
Concentrate on the driving
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Rank: Super forum user
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I know its probably a silly comment to make but what do the Police use when driving to communicate, when on their own in a vehicle?
They do have more comprehensive driver training that Mr & Mrs average driver but who is to say there are not drivers out there who are as well, if not better drivers than police people?
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Rank: Super forum user
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After undertaking unbiased extensive research on the subject of distraction when driving / using hazardous equipment / chemicals etc. over a long period that included evaluation of none H&S law + H&S law + many years of common sense and evaluating the opinions of many experts / other areas I have come to the conclusion that use of a mobile phone (hand free or not hand free) should not be allowed at work unless in the appropriate situation
I genuinely believe that use of a mobile phone (hand free or not hand free) has become a fashion habit/statement and noting else but countering a fashion habit etc. is a very very hard thing to do
Without doubt if a driver is involved in a crash when at work whilst using a hands free system their employer is at real risk
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Rank: Super forum user
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FireSafety101 wrote:
They do have more comprehensive driver training that Mr & Mrs average driver but who is to say there are not drivers out there who are as well, if not better drivers than police people?
This is yet another straw man argument. No-one has claimed that there is not one driver in existence who has the skills and powers of concentration that enables them to drive and talk on the telephone at the same time. We are talking about Mr & Mrs average, at best. Are all your H&S policies created on the assumption that all your workforce at all times and in all respects are operating at the pinnacle of human achievement? Mine aren't. Mine assume they are normal humans, with a normal range of abilities and shortcomings. The driving policy assumes they are Mr & Mrs average.
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Rank: New forum user
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tillybelle wrote:Can anyone help me with legislation about using hands free kits whilst driving? My boss has just shown me an article about someone who was using their hands free whilst driving a company car and was involved in an accident. This accident wasn't their fault but the company narrowly escaped action, as the person was on a personal call.
I've looked at the 'Driving at Work' INDG382' from the HSE but that doesn't cover using hands free. As an ex police officer I used to bang my drum about Police Officers responding to their radios whilst driving, but in answer to your question. I know a case appeared in a UK court (could have been 2009-10), where the driver of a HGV was using a hands free kit whilst driving his HGV, and was unfortunately involved in an RTC where the victim died. The HGV driver was given an outright Jail sentence, even though the HGV driver attempted to mitigate the circumstances by stating that he was using a hands free kit. The judge stated that the drivers attention was elsewhere at the time the RTC took place, he took the decision to answer the call, the actions that he took resulted in loss of life therefore he must impose a custodial sentence. Following this judgement I disposed of my hands free kit and I still refuse to use one. On our phones we have answer machines, we can pull over to call back. Some experts state that we lose concentration not by operating the phone, but by being involved in a conversation.
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Rank: New forum user
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FireSafety101 wrote:I know its probably a silly comment to make but what do the Police use when driving to communicate, when on their own in a vehicle?
They do have more comprehensive driver training that Mr & Mrs average driver but who is to say there are not drivers out there who are as well, if not better drivers than police people? as an ex officer Police officers are riding a very close to the edge at the moment. there was a time when most police vehicles were double crewed and the observer took the calls. Fast response vehicles still do have stick activators on the steering columns to operate radios etc.(like an indicator stick). But in the days of single crewing, because chief Constables want to give the impression that there are more police officers than actually exist. police officers are put in jeopardy. we will have to wait until a person dies in a police pursuit where an officer was single crewed and is convicted of dangerous driving by operating radios etc. before things will change. The Police do not have any special training, that gives them super powers to drive whilst using radios or hands free kits. In fact the airwaves system is more like a mobile phone that the old radios. ALL Police officers are warned not to use their radios whilst driving or they will be breaking the law. they choose to dit through pressure of work. I'm not condoning this behaviour.
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Rank: Super forum user
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"You can use hands-free phones, sat navs and 2-way radios when you’re driving or riding. But if the police think you’re distracted and not in control of your vehicle you could still get stopped and penalised" https://www.gov.uk/using...nes-when-driving-the-law
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Rank: Super forum user 
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ERICPD, it's as simple as that. Does talking on the phone - any phone - increase driving risk? Yes, the research is unequivocal. So, eliminate it, simple, job done. Why increase risk for the sake of, what, exactly?
John
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Rank: Super forum user
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It really depends on your company written policy on the use of phones while driving.
My company policy is clear - no use of phones while driving - including hands free.
So set your own acceptable standards?
David
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Rank: Super forum user 
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The problem with an outright ban on hands-free mobile phones is that it could tempt people to use a non-hands-fee phone, which is far more hazardous than a hands-free. Personnel may feel under pressure to accept a call, especially when driving long distances. Senior managers should set an example, however in my experience they are the biggest offenders.
Personally I don't have a big issue with hands-free phones. I think it should be left to the discretion of the receiver to decide whether they wish to take a call or ignore it. For instance, you can't compare the loss of concentration whilst driving on a fairly sparse motorway with negotiating a busy junction in peak traffic hour.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Quite right.
The risks attached to a low-speed collision at a roundabout are incomparable to a high-speed collision on a motorway.
A complete ban on making or receiving phone calls in a work vehicle, while moving or the engine operating, removes the temptation.
Making it a work H&S issue, and getting the safety policy signed for, removes employer risk.
If an accident occurs while the driver is on the phone it then becomes a HR problem.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Using a mobile phone whilst driving is illegal...empirical evidence suggests it has not prevented people from doing it!
As h&s practitioners we must be aware of all the implications of company policies and not just relying on a piece of paper rubber stamped by HR.
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Rank: Super forum user
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RayRapp wrote:The problem with an outright ban on hands-free mobile phones is that it could tempt people to use a non-hands-fee phone, Does the fact that stabbing people is illegal tempt someone to shoot people instead? I fail to see how how a company ban on taking any phone calls while driving will somehow make people more likely to take calls on a non-hands-free phone.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Speeding is illegal.
Empirical evidence suggests most people pay no attention to speed limits.
Most truck drivers pay no attention to the 40mph limit on single carriageways.
Having installed trackers in some trucks one transport manager was stunned to notice that all his drivers ignored the 40mph/sc limit....most van drivers ignore the 50mph/sc limit, by very wide margins. Maybe what you are saying is that many people driving for work ignore most laws, so one more is irrelevant?
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Rank: Super forum user 
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John, isn't it the case that most drivers ignore and/or are unaware of the law most of time?
Nothing like discussing driver safety and behaviour eh?
Almost as good as is this a RIDDOR' :-)
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Rank: Super forum user
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achrn wrote:RayRapp wrote:The problem with an outright ban on hands-free mobile phones is that it could tempt people to use a non-hands-fee phone, Does the fact that stabbing people is illegal tempt someone to shoot people instead? I fail to see how how a company ban on taking any phone calls while driving will somehow make people more likely to take calls on a non-hands-free phone. It's quite simple really. If a company removes the facility of providing a hands-free phone but still continues with a company phone, then there is a temptation to use the phone rather than say, having it turned off or ignoring it.
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Rank: New forum user
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Regardless of all of the discussion on here.
It is all down to personal Preference.
following the Crown Court Judgement, I am not willing to take the chance of serving time in prison, for something like this.
I always stop and call back if its urgent.
Non urgent can wait until the end of my journey
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