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simplesafety  
#1 Posted : 08 April 2014 10:05:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
simplesafety

Morning All

Im looking for some quotes from common law regarding the requirement to perform reactive monitoring and undertake accident investigations?

Can any one help?

Thanks in advance

Aleeman

A Kurdziel  
#2 Posted : 08 April 2014 13:03:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

There isn't any
simplesafety  
#3 Posted : 08 April 2014 13:06:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
simplesafety

Thought so, its another confusing NVQ5 question!!!
peter gotch  
#4 Posted : 08 April 2014 13:23:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

But implicit statutory duty to check that complying with duties under HSWA and that risk assessment and arrangements remain appropriate.
A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 08 April 2014 13:29:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I could be wrong but I have never come across one. I do argue that there is no statutory requirement to investigate accidents let alone a common law one. Have a look at the management regs; see if you can find one.
David Bannister  
#6 Posted : 08 April 2014 14:09:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

A bit tangential maybe but if an organisation is having regular, similar incidents and is not recognising a pattern nor finding out what's wrong, could that be deemed a breach of duty of care (negligence) towards the next person who gets hurt?
Steve e ashton  
#7 Posted : 08 April 2014 14:09:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

There IS a statutory duty to investigate - it's in the Social Security (claims and payments) Regs. Duty is to investigate and record any differences from the injured persons account in the BI 510 accident book. "There is more in heaven and earth than just the Management Regs!"

But that doesn't really answer the question which is specifically asking for common law examples.... And (off the cuff) I can't recall any cases where the failure to investigate has been an issues... Except perhaps... Stress. Look up Walker vs Northumberland Council for example *(there are many others..)... Briefly - (and inaccurately) The duty is to investigate whenever an employee complains of stress. Failure to do so - and to take action - will render the employer liable if any subsequent stress related illness develops.... Not sure if this may be what the question is looking for since I don't set the questions.
James365  
#8 Posted : 08 April 2014 14:12:04(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
James365

At the risk of teaching granny to suck eggs... there are broadly 4 common law duties on employers in this context: a duty to employ competent fellow employees, a duty to provide a safe place of work; a duty to provide safe plant and equipment, and; a duty to provide a safe system of work.

It could reasonably be argued that monitoring is a constitutes an integral part of any system which is able to demonstrate that it continues to meet these obligations (even if the monitoring only identifies that everything continues to be tickety boo). Similarly, if an organisation was to fail to undertake accident investigations, how otherwise could they demonstrate that they have taken reasonable care in the provision of, say, a safe place of work if they fail to evaluate incidents and accidents with a view to minimising the risk of their recurrence?
A Kurdziel  
#9 Posted : 08 April 2014 15:48:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

There is a duty to record accidents at work under social security legislation but not any sort of duty to investigate how they happened or to establish any sort of underlying causes. You could argue ( and I’d agree) that if you are trying to establish a proper H&S safety management system you need to investigate when it goes wrong and to have procedure to learn lessons but this is not spelled out in any sort of law either a statute or even a judicial precedent(ratio decidendi). There has never been a case where an employer has been prosecuted for not carrying out an investigation for the simple reason there is no legal requirement to do so.
If you were to think about it, what sort of investigation might be required, to what level.. would it be aimed at blaming the poor sod who was nearest to the accident, the local manager the senior director the CEO etc.
jay  
#10 Posted : 08 April 2014 17:04:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

It was in 2001 when the HSC had "consulted" whether to have a a new duty to investigate
accidents, dangerous occurrences and diseases, after a a discussion document (DD) in 1999. Unfortunately, the DD is no longer available on the HSE Website


http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd169.pdf

matelot1965  
#11 Posted : 08 April 2014 17:44:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
matelot1965

Although not law check out the managing for health and safety in the HSE website the check component of plan-do-check act states :- Investigate the causes of accidents, incidents or near misses

http://www.hse.gov.uk/ma...ng/plan-do-check-act.htm
DP  
#12 Posted : 08 April 2014 18:13:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
DP

There is the implied duty inn the management regs. Review RA post accident.

How can you do this without investigating the cause. Hence why solicitors will always request pre and post accident RA's when dealing with PI claims - in case you have changed them - by definition liability attaches if you have made significant changes effecting the incident.
boblewis  
#13 Posted : 08 April 2014 19:11:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Look at Sectn 2 Hasawa carefully - almost every part of it relates to a common law duty based around the mining industry. that is how Robens came up with them. He looked at decided cases
Steve e ashton  
#14 Posted : 08 April 2014 19:24:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

Where did the myth come from that there is no duty to investigate??? HSE may deny any knowledge - but hat is just their ignorance. They are not responsible for enforcing it so it doesn't exist? (Sounds like the myth busters)

Social Security Claims and Payments Regs 1979...Regulation 25(1). : “Every employer shall take reasonable steps to investigate the circumstances of every accident of which notice is given to him or to his servant or agent in accordance with the provisions of regulation 24…”

The purpose of the investigation may seem odd by the standards of today but the law is still in place. (Although never enforced / no prosecutions to the best of my knowledge)....
jarsmith83  
#15 Posted : 08 April 2014 19:39:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

Aleeman wrote:
Morning All

Im looking for some quotes from common law regarding the requirement to perform reactive monitoring and undertake accident investigations?

Can any one help?

Thanks in advance

Aleeman



I think you are looking for duty of care like many have alluded to. you can look into any duty of care common law case and then add to this with the formation for the corporate manslaughter act. In particular:

- An organisation is guilty of CM/CH if the way in which its activities are managed or organised causes a person’s death, and it amounts to a gross breach of a relevant duty of care owed by the organisation to the deceased.

- The jury may also have regard to any relevant health and safety guidance issued by an enforcing authority which exists. This would include approved code of practice and health and safety guidance issued by HSE.

The jury may also consider issues such as “attitudes, policies, systems or accepted practices within the organisation that were likely to have encouraged any failure… or to have produced a tolerance to it”.

- In the context of a work-related death protocol investigation it is highly likely that HSE will be able to assist the police and the CPS in identifying relevant publications, evidence of breach of relevant health and safety legislation and any evidence either current or historical of attitudes, policies etc which may have contributed or encouraged the failure. This may include any previous enforcement action taken by HSE or previous relevant advice.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/en...deaths/investigation.htm

As someone else has made reference to, HSG65 provides guidance on Plan, Act, Do. I have done the qualification you are doing and they are asking questions in a way to draw knowledge or to teach the individual to research, similar to masters degrees. be expansive with your answers to demonstrate you have a full understanding.
boblewis  
#16 Posted : 08 April 2014 23:49:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Why are some talking of statutory provisions when the question is about common law?

Look at Wilsons and Clyde Coal Ltd v English [1937] as a typical example of what is now legislation under sect 2 Hasawa. This case decided the employer responsibilty forr a Safe System of work. I am not going to do the rest of the task however. You need to look at both the dicta and obiter in detail to see the needs for investigation.

Bob
A Kurdziel  
#17 Posted : 09 April 2014 10:52:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

steve e ashton wrote:
Where did the myth come from that there is no duty to investigate??? HSE may deny any knowledge - but hat is just their ignorance. They are not responsible for enforcing it so it doesn't exist? (Sounds like the myth busters)

Social Security Claims and Payments Regs 1979...Regulation 25(1). : “Every employer shall take reasonable steps to investigate the circumstances of every accident of which notice is given to him or to his servant or agent in accordance with the provisions of regulation 24…”

The purpose of the investigation may seem odd by the standards of today but the law is still in place. (Although never enforced / no prosecutions to the best of my knowledge)....

A Kurdziel  
#18 Posted : 09 April 2014 10:53:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

So there is an obligation to ‘investigate’ but the Social Security regs make it clear that this is nothing to do with H&S and finding out the causes of an accident. It is to do with making sure any claim for incapacity benefit relating to a workplace accident is not fraudulent. That is all.
As for lawyers and their letters well then they imply in these letters that if you don’t have a risk assessment for every single little thing, then you are in breach of the law and their client has a case. This legal bunk because a) for a claim to succeed they would have to establish that the lack a risk assessment is the cause of the injury and anyway since last year you can no longer sue for a breach of statutory duty in relation to H&S law.
gramsay  
#19 Posted : 09 April 2014 15:52:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gramsay

DP wrote:
There is the implied duty inn the management regs. Review RA post accident.

How can you do this without investigating the cause. Hence why solicitors will always request pre and post accident RA's when dealing with PI claims - in case you have changed them - by definition liability attaches if you have made significant changes effecting the incident.


This doesn't sound right. Civil liability depends on a series of causal issues (your failure to fulfil a duty causing the injury). Just because, following a post accident RA review, you change the way you control risk doesn't mean "by definition" the risk wasn't properly controlled before, it could just be you're taking this opportunity to review from the ground up. Equally I don't think the fact you make significant changes to a risk control in itself proves criminal liability. This sounds a bit like saying every time you change a risk assessment (following a review) you're implying things were improperly controlled before.

Isn't it important to give employers the freedom to change and innovate as times and people move on? - what matters is whether the risk control at a particular point in time is suitable & sufficient, not whether it would be done differently at a different time. Of course people will use the evidence of your changing controls to point the finger and suggest proof of negligence, I just wanted to question whether this is automatically true in all cases.
jay  
#20 Posted : 09 April 2014 17:32:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

The specific answer to your question is that there is no explicit duty to investigate accidents, but there are "implied" duties:-

1) Implicit duty under Regulation 5, Management regulations i.e.. Arrangements for monitoring of the preventive and protective measures.


Previously, the ACoP to the Management Regulations in para 36 under Regulation 5, Health & Safety Arrangements; Monitoring :-
Employers should measure what they are doing to implement their health and safety policy, to assess how effectively they are controlling risks, and how well they are developing a positive health and safety culture.

Monitoring includes:(b) adequately investigating the immediate and underlying causes of
incidents and accidents to ensure that remedial action is taken, lessons are learnt and longer term objectives are introduced

2) Implicit duty under RIDDOR for those that have to be reported to HSE, as one cannot adequately complete part, "About the Kind of Accident" i.e Describe what happened (give as much detail as you can, including i) the events that led to the incident ii) the operation or activity in progress. Describe any action taken to prevent similar incidents occurring).


Last, but not least, extract from HSE Guidance, "Investigating accidents and incidents:
A workbook for employers, unions, safety representatives and safety professionals -HS(G)245
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hsg245.pdf

Legal reasons for investigating
To ensure you are operating your organisation within the law.

The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999, regulation 5, requires employers to plan, organise, control, monitor and review their health and safety arrangements. Health and safety investigations form an essential part of this process.

Following the Woolf Report on civil action, you are expected to make full disclosure of the circumstances of an accident to the injured parties considering legal action. The fear of litigation may make you think it is better not to investigate, but you can’t make things better if you don’t know what went wrong! The fact that you thoroughly investigated an accident and took remedial action to prevent further accidents would demonstrate to a court that your company has a positive attitude to health and safety. Your investigation findings will also provide essential information for your insurers in the event of a claim.


DP  
#21 Posted : 09 April 2014 19:53:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
DP

Gamsey that was the point I was making the solicitors will look for holes to strengthen the case. I'm simply making the point they request pre and post looking for this.
Steve Granger  
#22 Posted : 09 April 2014 22:48:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve Granger

Perhaps a starting point for discussion might be Lord Atkins neighbour test?


Words like foreseeable bring in Bolton v Stone and a few other 'oldies' hard to give more on this without knowing the full context - but I am sure there is a reason connected to the syllabus for asking about it and some more up to date cases or accident profiles.

What it isn't (imho) is what most people talk of in the responses above ... 'candidates did not read the questions and answered one they wish they had been asked' or some other similar echo from the examiners....
Statute v Common law - come on it has only been around for 800 years!

Happy Birthday Magna Carta!
bob youel  
#23 Posted : 10 April 2014 08:01:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

There are implied duties every where if you evaluate in-depth e.g. from the Wilson's and Clyde Coal Ltd v English case to other case law inclusive of the management regs as how can you have a management system without investigation being a part of that system?

Try going to court and saying to a judge that "we did not investigate this death because its not a statute requirement to investigate' and see what happens!
chris42  
#24 Posted : 10 April 2014 08:45:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Aleeman

Further to Steve's point in #22, what is the exact wording of the question(s). No offence regarding your summation of the question, just sometimes even one word can make a huge difference. We seem to have focused on the accident investigation part of your post, not the reactive monitoring - which could be COSHH related.

Chris

A Kurdziel  
#25 Posted : 10 April 2014 09:22:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

So we have established that there is an ‘implied duty’ to carry accident investigations; what is an ‘implied duty’ what does it mean in legal terms, well I think nothing. No English court can look at the law and say this law ‘implies that you should do this or not do that’ ; they just don’t work like that. They either take a literal approach looking at what the law actually says(nowhere does it spell out you have a duty to investigate accidents for the purpose of managing H&S) nor could they ascertain that when the legislation was passed, parliament had accident investigation as one of its aims( purposive approach).
In the question as original raised either the examiner has got it wrong or we are missing something in the original posting

boblewis  
#26 Posted : 10 April 2014 12:44:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

A Kurdziel wrote:
So we have established that there is an ‘implied duty’ to carry accident investigations; what is an ‘implied duty’ what does it mean in legal terms, well I think nothing. No English court can look at the law and say this law ‘implies that you should do this or not do that’ ; they just don’t work like that. They either take a literal approach looking at what the law actually says(nowhere does it spell out you have a duty to investigate accidents for the purpose of managing H&S) nor could they ascertain that when the legislation was passed, parliament had accident investigation as one of its aims( purposive approach).
In the question as original raised either the examiner has got it wrong or we are missing something in the original posting



The problem is that nearly everyone has gone off on the tangent of statutory provisions which was not what the OP was asking.

In common law judges do look behind matters and make judgements on what may be involved in maintaining the legal duty of care that is the foundation of much common law. We All have a duty of care not to injure others or damage their property and from this many things flow. If something has happened and we do not re assess what we are or have been doing then we are in severe difficulties before the courts to explain why we have failed to modify actions which have been known to cause damage. Hence the main purpose of investigation is to prevent re-occurrence NOT find the guilty. It is a very proper exam question as it gets the candidate to look deeper into the pressures of common law to investigaqte accidents WHATEVER statutory provisions may require.

Bob
Steve e ashton  
#27 Posted : 10 April 2014 12:44:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

I thought I had offered a common law line of enquiry / solution to the OP at post no 7... as well as highlighting the common error being perpetuated by others here.

Successful common law claim relies on 'foreseeability'... Walker had two nervous breakdowns. His employer was deemed to have been "put on notice" after the first breakdown but failed to investigate effectively and failed to implement those remedial measures that were identified. Claimants second breakdown was therefore entirely foreseeable and the claim succeeded.
boblewis  
#28 Posted : 10 April 2014 12:55:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Steve

Was tempted to use the standard examiner response "Read the question" :-)

Bob
simplesafety  
#29 Posted : 10 April 2014 16:40:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
simplesafety

The actual question does refer to statutory requirements also:

"Explain which safety statuary and common law have an effect on how your organization carries out accident/incident investigation"

I can refer to the Act, MHWR and RIDDOR for the statutory bit, but was lost when I attempted the commonlaw side of things.
Steve Granger  
#30 Posted : 10 April 2014 18:42:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve Granger

Now I feel like really getting my teeth into this - a question which requires both the rationale for undertaking investigation - importantly the operative word is 'how' (common law expectations) and methodology for minimum requirement (statutory duties).

Good answer probably included doing more that the minimum, competence, process and remedial actions, sharing results, including representatives, insurance and other notifications etc etc.



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