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Lishka0  
#1 Posted : 01 May 2014 15:25:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Lishka0

Sorry another RIDDOR query, but this time relating to stress. I have always been of the understanding that stress is difficult to determine as a RIDDOR as often it is a build up of issues and not normally related to one particular incident. However, I have an incident reported to me (encouraged by their Union to report as they believe it should be reported!) which states they believe it is down to a particular work place incident but on further investigation it appears there is a long history behind this. They claim the one incident that occurred 'caused them to have a breakdown' as such and subsequently went on the sick.The workplace stress is believed to be down to one main factor which is bullying. Now the person has been off for several months but only now I have been notified by HR of this. We have conducted a stress risk assessment for the person and provided support through Occ Health, EAP and stress workshops for staff and managers of which they have also attended. I would be interested to see other's views on whether this is a RIDDOR or any personal examples they have similar to this.
David Bannister  
#2 Posted : 01 May 2014 15:37:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Not an accident, not a reportable disease (as defined in RIDDOR) nor a dangerous occurrence. Not a RIDDOR incident. But certainly a situation that needs to be sorted out -both cause and effect.
PH2  
#3 Posted : 01 May 2014 15:37:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PH2

Stress in not RIDDOR reportable.
Tigers  
#4 Posted : 01 May 2014 15:39:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Tigers

Hi, Try looking at the new RIDDOR criteria on what is reportable: http://www.hse.gov.uk/ri...reportable-incidents.htm
Canopener  
#5 Posted : 01 May 2014 16:05:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

tigers wrote:
Hi, Try looking at the new RIDDOR criteria on what is reportable: http://www.hse.gov.uk/ri...reportable-incidents.htm
Indeed, a quick check suggests not reportable.
Animax01  
#6 Posted : 01 May 2014 16:51:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Animax01

Yet it's something that has been identified as harmful and widely accepted that its a very real problem. I imagine that the problem would be getting an official diagnose and cause. Maybe its one for a future amendment?
safetyamateur  
#7 Posted : 02 May 2014 07:50:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
safetyamateur

Stress is not an injury, disease or dangerous occurrence.
A Kurdziel  
#8 Posted : 02 May 2014 09:00:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

As said stress is not reportable. We have had a couple of cases and the persons concerned have tried to have it treated as a RIDDOR. I have had to say no but I have also tried to get HR etc to do something about this problem.
stevedm  
#9 Posted : 02 May 2014 09:17:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

I think one of the major concerns is that it falls down a crack between Safety and HR... Someone needs to own it and although HR stick their hand up and say that is their policy when someone says risk assessment..in everyone's head that equals safety.... You have done the right thing just isn't, at the moment, RIDDOR reportable.
Lishka0  
#10 Posted : 02 May 2014 10:12:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Lishka0

SteveDM wrote:
I think one of the major concerns is that it falls down a crack between Safety and HR... Someone needs to own it and although HR stick their hand up and say that is their policy when someone says risk assessment..in everyone's head that equals safety.... You have done the right thing just isn't, at the moment, RIDDOR reportable.
This is the problem I am having. HR are taking the lead on Wellbeing strategy and I have been working with them to carry out Stress Assessments and I think that is the way forward to work in conjuction with each other. I have been advised to report under the 'over 7 day' but I am not entirely convinced this is right. It appears the 'stressor' can be linked to one particular area but this is currently being dealt with by HR under their procedures.
Lishka0  
#11 Posted : 02 May 2014 10:16:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Lishka0

A Kurdziel wrote:
As said stress is not reportable. We have had a couple of cases and the persons concerned have tried to have it treated as a RIDDOR. I have had to say no but I have also tried to get HR etc to do something about this problem.
Were those that wanted it treated as a RIDDOR accepting of the fact that it was? We do appear to have a culture whereby if a doctor states on the form 'workplace stress' then people think it should be reported. I would be interested to know whether there are any cases that have been reported to the HSE and what was the reasoning for these.
stevedm  
#12 Posted : 02 May 2014 10:18:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

The HSE did a research report in Construction stress a few years back I will dig it out...it did say the instances were low I think less than 10%..but it might help..
stevedm  
#13 Posted : 02 May 2014 10:25:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr518.pdf Found it..!! Don't know if it will help, but worth a read.
Lishka0  
#14 Posted : 02 May 2014 10:38:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Lishka0

SteveDM wrote:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr518.pdf Found it..!! Don't know if it will help, but worth a read.
Thank you! Will take a read now.
jay  
#15 Posted : 02 May 2014 11:46:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Lishka0 wrote:
SteveDM wrote:
I think one of the major concerns is that it falls down a crack between Safety and HR... Someone needs to own it and although HR stick their hand up and say that is their policy when someone says risk assessment..in everyone's head that equals safety.... You have done the right thing just isn't, at the moment, RIDDOR reportable.
This is the problem I am having. HR are taking the lead on Wellbeing strategy and I have been working with them to carry out Stress Assessments and I think that is the way forward to work in conjuction with each other. I have been advised to report under the 'over 7 day' but I am not entirely convinced this is right. It appears the 'stressor' can be linked to one particular area but this is currently being dealt with by HR under their procedures.
The Over 7 days reprting is for "injuries" ,not for illnesses and as yet, stress is not an illness reportable under RIDDOR
jay  
#16 Posted : 02 May 2014 11:48:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Opps, I meant disease, not illness!
Steve e ashton  
#17 Posted : 02 May 2014 13:01:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

Widening the debate slightly.... The OP identifies that "We have conducted a stress risk assessment for the person and provided support through Occ Health, EAP and stress workshops for staff and managers of which they have also attended." If I did a manual handling risk assessment 'for an individual' worker - and then told the worker to begin attending with the local chiropractor because he had a bad back.... Would I be in the same situation??? I am always nervous of 'stress' related issues when the 'solution' is seen as somehow being treatment for the injured rather than elimination reduction isolation or control of the risk... We appear to be blaming the victim as being the author of his own misfortune.. And I say 'we' - because I know I've been there done that.... It's a lot easier than doing a business-wide survey for stress related 'problems', then changing hours of work, employing twenty more supervisors, overhauling the business culture, sacking the bullying MD, doing away with bonus targets and... and.... If its a problem (and it often is) - then it needs to be resolved at source not just by putting a sticking plaster on it... And for once I don't have a simple answer.
Borisgiles  
#18 Posted : 02 May 2014 17:27:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Borisgiles

Steve e ashton raises a good point. However speaking as someone who suffered a serious breakdown and effectively lost 3 years due to work related stress and bullying I know that stress workshops and counselling etc can be very helpful. You can put two different people in the same situation with stress, pressure and shall we say "intimidating" management. One person might have a breakdown, the other might just deal with it and have no issues. The four years of work I've done on myself since my breakdown mean that it's not going to happen again to me as I have a much better recognition of the problems and causes and a clear strategy of how to deal with them. This does not absolve management of the responsibility of course, but if 20 employees are under the same pressure and only one reacts, you can effectively work with that person. Think of it more as a training course like Manual Handling training to stop the injury rather than an operation to fix the injury. Of course recognising the problem and dealing with it before it becomes a major issue is the real challenge, but often the symptoms are fairly obvious once you look for them.
Lishka0  
#19 Posted : 03 May 2014 08:54:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Lishka0

Very good point steve e ashton and I was conscious that we needed to deal with the root cause. We also are tackling stress and wellbeing in an organisation wide way too. Interestingly enough we conducted a staff survey (important it was not called 'stress' survey'!) where, although not directly asking "are you stressed", some responses illustrated an issue. The intent to be that we could use some of this information to help with our organisation wide risk assessment. I attended one of our sessions we run on coping techniques and must admit I found it one of the most beneficial sessions I have attended on stress. Well worth considering if anyone is thinking about providing similar sessions for staff. As Borisgiles mentions above, this session was both about proactively recognising the problems and signs of stress but also giving practical ways of coping and dealing with the issues.
RayRapp  
#20 Posted : 03 May 2014 10:04:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Joined the debate a bit late...the notion that you can provide support, counselling, risk assessment and so on, post psychological injury (stress) as a means of mitigating or reducing liability was challenged by Pill LJ, in Daw v Intel Corporation (UK) Limited [2006] EWCA Civ 1188. The defendants argued that had Daw taken advantage of counselling services and medical assistance available to employees, the urgency of her situation would have become clear. However, Pill LJ said: “Counselling services were not a ‘panacea’ by which employers could discharge their duty of care.”
Ann E Seed  
#21 Posted : 04 May 2014 17:04:25(UTC)
Rank:: New forum user
Ann E Seed

Borisgiles wrote:
You can put two different people in the same situation with stress, pressure and shall we say "intimidating" management. One person might have a breakdown, the other might just deal with it and have no issues.
IMO, there are two distinct categories here. Firstly, there is stress that is directly linked to the type of work that you do (e.g. a high stress role such as a stockmarket trader, high pressure targets, someone who works with victims of abuse etc). Secondly, there is stress that is caused by a hostile work environment such as a bullying manager or colleague. In the first case one person having a breakdown and another being able to deal with it suggests that the person who had a breakdown may be able to develop coping strategies to help them deal with the pressures of their jobs (or they may find that they do not have the disposition for that type of work). In the second case, I agree with Steve. The suggestion that the victim is the one with the problem and is the one who needs "fixing" makes me very uncomfortable. More often than not in bullying cases, the person responsible does not treat everyone in exactly the same way, there is usually one person who is singled out more than others. This works because the bully gets more of a reaction from a victim who is singled out and it also serves as a warning to others. To suggest that this management style is passable because only one person had a breakdown is to contort the real life experiences of most victims and store up problems for the future. When the first bullied victim leaves, he/she will inevitably be replaced by the next victim to fill the void for the bully. The person who needs fixing here is the bully not the victim.
wstuarth  
#22 Posted : 05 May 2014 10:17:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
wstuarth

Lishka0 I note within the thread that HR are pushing you to report this, I have found in the past that HR colleagues try to report it as an industrial injury, within the terms of the Industrial Injuries Scheme (IIS). Reporting injuries within the terms of the scheme can, for some organisations, remove it from their "absence figures" and thus allow them to report lower sickness absence figures, potentially bringing a range of benefits to the organisation or others who may have an element of performance related pay (not saying that is the case here). So there are potentially other "dark forces" at work here !! No European Member State has, as yet assimilated work-related stress into its industrial injury compensation schemes and whilst there are a few paragraphs of explanation within DWP guidance it remains the view of the UK government that stress should not be viewed as an eligible injury/disease for the IIS. It is however quite clear that occupational stress is not reportable under RIDDOR, even if it can be attributed to a single event. Others more skilled that myself have outlined this position above and the guidance to support RIDDOR does not facilitate its inclusion or give anyone the authorisation to report things that seem "best to report". You can always ask HR to show you the part of the RIDDOR guidance that makes them think it is reportable. Hope you have been able to arrive at a decision that you are happy with Stuart
davidjohn#1  
#23 Posted : 16 May 2014 23:37:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
davidjohn#1

I stand to be corrected but from a recent Stress seminar I understand that the HSE recognise stress and it's mentioned as a consideration within the HASAWA, but theres no regulation, a cop etc, just guidance. As already stated by others, definitely reportable. DJ
davidjohn#1  
#24 Posted : 16 May 2014 23:38:14(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
davidjohn#1

DavidJohn#1 wrote:
I stand to be corrected but from a recent Stress seminar I understand that the HSE recognise stress and it's mentioned as a consideration within the HASAWA, but theres no regulation, a cop etc, just guidance. As already stated by others, definitely reportable. DJ
Sorry for typo, should have read: As already stated by others, definitely NOT reportable.
Gmullen  
#25 Posted : 17 May 2014 09:56:56(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Gmullen

Whilst not RIDDOR it is very useful to use the comparison when trying to get employers to recognise the issue - going to to the Executive and saying had these been RIDDOR - would you ignore the x no of cases...
Lishka0  
#26 Posted : 18 May 2014 10:40:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Lishka0

Thank you all for the advice. I just find it interesting how the Union were so persistent in trying to get it reported! Following the investigation of this particular incident it is becoming increasingly more apparent that it is more of HR issue and made me wonder whether they feel it could be dealt with more effectively by going down the H&S route!
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