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minniecat  
#1 Posted : 04 May 2014 21:17:09(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
minniecat

When does an accident to a child at school become reportable under RIDDOR

Circumstances are...

Child at a non-mainstream school (behaviour problems (ADHD & Aspergers)) was stuck on the foot during a PE lesson by a failing trampoline leg

The resulting injury is a fracture to the big toe (section of bone broken off at the tip), trip to theater, kept in hospital more than 24 hours, toe nail dead but not removed

Frequent home visits by community nurse

Child is 14

Advice pls
fscott  
#2 Posted : 05 May 2014 09:18:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fscott

This HSE leaflet is specific to education and may help give you the answer you are looking for http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/edis1.pdf.

From the information you have provided my gut feeling is that if the child was taken directly to hospital from the school then yes such an incident would be reportable as it was caused by the equipment in use.
firesafety101  
#3 Posted : 05 May 2014 13:15:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I believe I will be slated for saying this but in my personal opinion this is probably a case of negligence on the part of the school and if I were the child's parent I would be looking for a good solicitor to take out a claim against the school.

Forget about the RIDDOR, I have experienced something similar myself whereby my daughter suffered an incident at school that led to her being away from school since January and has just returned last week. There was a week in hospital with surgery, CAT scans, X-Rays etc followed by twice daily visits by the hospital nurses to our home for intravenous antibiotic.

Osteomyalitis was the eventual diagnosis and she almost lost the lower part of a leg. Still attending the fracture clinic weekly as the would has not healed fully.

Not the same as the child in this thread but the effect on the family has been horrendous, and I bet that will be the same for the family of this child?

When you consider we send our children to school to be educated and looked after and return home at the end of the day unharmed.

In this case, where a child who is State Education Needs when the child is at school it is actually a period of respite for the parents from full on 100% caring for the child, when something like this happens it means that respite is no longer available and the stress levels ramp up very quickly.

Children with ADHD need to be attended full time and in school will have either a Statement of Education Needs or a Health Care Plan. There will be funding provided by the LEA to provide staff in school to care for the child.

This could be a case of gross negligence and the school should be questioned about it and why they failed to care for this child. The duty of care under HASWA comes into it as well.

Rant over but still angry.



bob youel  
#4 Posted : 06 May 2014 07:31:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

before making comments we need the full background to each event noting that the comment "......was stuck on the foot during a PE lesson by a FAILING trampoline leg......." sounds like the school has failed to maintain its kit so its a work related event


in the last few weeks I have dealth with 5 broken limbs - not just fingers and toes - [5 different children all under the age of 8]. All events happened in schools whilst children were at play and all of which turned out to be non RIDDOR even though all children attended hospital etc.
rockybalboa  
#5 Posted : 06 May 2014 07:52:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
rockybalboa

Broken fingers or toes arent reportable.... ?

http://www.hse.gov.uk/ri...reportable-incidents.htm

The list of ‘specified injuries’ in RIDDOR 2013 replaces the previous list of ‘major injuries’ in RIDDOR 1995. Specified injuries are (regulation 4):
fractures, other than to fingers, thumbs and toes
achrn  
#6 Posted : 06 May 2014 08:40:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

bob youel wrote:
before making comments we need the full background to each event noting that the comment "......was stuck on the foot during a PE lesson by a FAILING trampoline leg......." sounds like the school has failed to maintain its kit so its a work related event


No, it sounds like the trampoline leg failed, which may or may not have been due to inadequate maintenance. Consider, for example, Stark v. The Post Office. Although this is usually considered as an example of the absolute duty of care under PUWER, it was clearly a finding that the Post Office were not negligent and had exercised reasonable care, even though this had failed to predict or detect the imminent failure of a component. Just because something failed, it does not follow that there was a failure to maintain it, and it especially does not follow that someone must have been negligent.

The link further up the thread doesn't work for me, but the document in question is the relevant one. Try this: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/edis1.htm

My interpretation would be that this would be reportable if it was a reportable type injury, but a fracture to a toe is not a reportable injury. That is, it does meet the requirement for equivalence to being 'at work', but does not meet the requirement to be a reportable injury.

Zyggy  
#7 Posted : 06 May 2014 08:53:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zyggy

RockyBalboa,

Specified injuries are only reportable if they involve employees, not for example pupils, members of the public, etc. i.e. non-employees.

For these, other criteria apply, i.e. were they taken straight to hospital for treatment & did the incident arise out of a work activity (sometimes a grey area)?

rockybalboa  
#8 Posted : 06 May 2014 09:06:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
rockybalboa

Cheers Zyggy, I dont work with non-employees really so a nice bit of info but surely its only a broken toe, thats why the HSE exclude them cause its not so critical when considering overall how to use the HSE's limited investigation resources....

Achrn, I like your thinking in the final paragraph, I think you had a double negative in there though "but does meet the requirement to be a reportable injury.". I agree with your thinking its not reportable as its not a reportable type injury.
creative2  
#9 Posted : 07 May 2014 11:00:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
creative2

The guidance for students' RIDDOR reporting comes down to if they go direct to hospital then reportable and if the injury was a result of a failure in building or equipment or lack of supervision than they should be reported.

The guidance is not absolutely clear or particularly easy to understand but certainly straight to hospital then reportable.
Hope that helps.
jwk  
#10 Posted : 07 May 2014 11:28:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Just to be absolutely clear on this; reporting of an injury to a person not at work does not depend on the nature of that injury. The criteria are two: was the injury due to or arising out of work, and was that person taken to hospital for treatment? The broken toe, by these criteria, was reportable if as it seems there was an equipment failure (incident arose out of work),

John
firesafety101  
#11 Posted : 07 May 2014 11:39:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

RockyBalboa wrote:
Cheers Zyggy, I dont work with non-employees really so a nice bit of info but surely its only a broken toe, thats why the HSE exclude them cause its not so critical when considering overall how to use the HSE's limited investigation resources....

Achrn, I like your thinking in the final paragraph, I think you had a double negative in there though "but does meet the requirement to be a reportable injury.". I agree with your thinking its not reportable as its not a reportable type injury.


Rocky - "surely its only a broken toe"

That's what infuriates me, I know we're talking about RIDDOR and this probably isn't reportable but "only a broken toe" to a disabled child will have severe implications for the parents/Carer/s.

jwk  
#12 Posted : 07 May 2014 11:44:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Yes, the law does sometimes make serious events sound trivial, and I've often marvelled at the tinking that makes broken digits ('only a broken toe!) not reportable! What about the pain and the hobbling about, and as FS101 says, what about the stress and distress caused to this child and the parents?

But to repeat; broken toe or not is irrelvant in this case to the question of reporting. If the trampoline leg did collapse as reported and since the child was taken to hospital for treatment this would be reportable under RIDDOR. The nature of the injury, in this case, is not a reporting criterion,

John
minniecat  
#13 Posted : 07 May 2014 15:25:13(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
minniecat

hi all, thanks so far...

the child has several mental learning difficulties not physical ones

the trampoline was being set up by the children (?) in a special needs school (??)

the leg did not clip into place and sprang back hitting the child on the foot wearing trainers

the child had surgery to suture the broken skin on the toe together

the fracture to the toe, is no confirmed as a complete split in the big toe bone, they are hoping it fuses back together but may have to steel pinned

the school have indicated that they are carrying out a 'risk assessment investigation' correct wording should be 'accident investigation'

also been informed that the PE teacher wasn't actually supervising, she left them 'to get on with it'

also the school have said that all pupils have been 'trained' how to put up the trampoline, the clue here is in the school, 'non-mainstream', 'learning difficulties'

a child with learning difficulties signing a training form, hmmm, inadmissible one thinks

what ever happened to MITTS here???

have asked the parent involved to ask for a 2508, accident investigation and RA's, however i suspect that the school will be reluctant to give these....

more thoughts?
minniecat  
#14 Posted : 07 May 2014 15:29:41(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
minniecat

sorry...

more info

the child went directly to hospital from school, school WOULDN'T take her as they didnt think it severe enough but called the parent to take them to get checked out, when the parent saw child could not walk and blood coming through the trainer went straight to nearest hospital...
David Bannister  
#15 Posted : 07 May 2014 15:33:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

minnie, find a solicitor who specialises in personal injury claims and let them get on with it. Why are you obsessing about a RIDDOR report?
jwk  
#16 Posted : 07 May 2014 15:36:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Reportable as caring for children is part of a school's undertaking and they seem to have failed to care here. David, yes, I agree about finding a solicitor, but minie did want an answer on the RIDDOR piece.

All sounds like a dreadful incident, and it looks like having at least medium term consequences for the child,

John
minniecat  
#17 Posted : 07 May 2014 15:42:24(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
minniecat

im not obsessing about RIDDOR reporting now as im happy with the advice given that it is reportable

just want to give the parent the best advice possible and educational facilities are not my specialist area (prefer nuclear decommissioning any day!!!)

plus i thought you might like an update (maybe i was wrong)

thanks for the info / guidance guys/girls
bob youel  
#18 Posted : 08 May 2014 07:19:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

Having both nuclear decommissioning and child care under my belt I know which is easier and its not child care / social services areas!

If the event was caused through an action/inaction related to a work activity e.g. the activity was teaching and possibly poor maintenance then there is a work related relationship irrespective of other areas so if in doubt report from that point noting that the HSE get many thousands of such events that are child related reported to them each day and, in my personal view, they do not want to tackle schools especially special needs schools as they appear to be out of their depth and these days FFI has a large influence as well so fining a school is not a politicially good thing to do. Additionally I would report the event to the local LA and Ofstead

All that said you need to determine just what you want to achieve out of the act of reporting otherwise reporting alone will probably not do much

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