Hello Everyone, I work for an engineering company, last week we were inspected by the HSE and have been issued an improvement notice for the lack of guarding on our 4 (very old) manual milling machines. I am very new to the world of engineering, eventhough I am learning fast my knowledge is of course limited so I am hoping that I can draw on your experience. Having explained the situation to our manual millers their first reaction is 'we can't do our job if the machines are guarded' which I was expecting. So my issue now is to find a guard that protects as well as one the millers can work with. Does anyone have any suggestions or experiences of guarding that works. I have found some on the internet but wondered if anyone had introduced them successfully? Many Thanks

Having worked in the machine tool industry for some years there are some types of machinery that is just impossible to guard and still operate. I challenged on HSE inspector to suggest how you guard a manual metal spinning machine. After some cogitation and discussion he agreed that it simply could not be done. I have yet to see anyone come up with a workable guard for a manual wood spinning lathe. My reaction would be to go back to the HSE inspector and ask, since you are insisting we guard these machines, can you please suggest how we might do this. It is unreasonable, in my view, simply to insist that you do the impossible without being able to suggest a solution. Chris

But Reg 11 has to be taken with a pinch of salt for many machines. Milling machines being one of them. That's why I never enforced on them (on the say so of other more experienced inspectors who were training me at the time). That's why I think it's harsh of them, though obviously well within their rights to enforce. So it's either inexperience on the part of the inspector, an over-zealous inspector, or a sign of the FFI times.

Angela Are these horizontal or vertical milling machines or both? If horizontal, specific regulations made in 1928, but revoked by PUWER.

Angela you have a PM. Reagrds, Paul.

Hi Angela You could fit an adjustable guard similar to that on a vertical drill or provide a telescopic trip device with DC injection braking.

There are some items of equipment that modern standards of guarding are difficult to achieve on old machines. Inspectors (used to) use discretion. I used to use discretion on guarding of SOME machines. Nothing was ever put in writing but it wasn't actually enforced. I never enforced on pillar drill guarding either. If there was an accident the book would have been thrown at them (but I never investigated an accident on a milling machine or pillar drill - that's not to say they never happen). But hey, I didn't say life was fair. Times have changed though.They seem to enforce everything nowadays. A money making exercise that has little do do with safety.

I am saddened at some of the responses to this question. Since when did this forum become a mouthpiece for the "it can't be done" and lets "turn a blind eye" to a serious health and safety problem. Yes a serious problem. People still get entangled in these machines or lose eyes from flying debris. We are now in the second decade of the 21st century, and can't resolve a legal problem that was made quite clear 80 years ago with the Factories Act. #3 gives an example of something that is "impossible to guard". Maybe. But that is not an excuse not to guard or attempt to guard thousands of others that could, and should be guarded. #4 is quite correct, guards can be provided. Magnetic stands with either open mesh or plastic screens have been available for more than 40 years. #6 quite rightly raises the Factories Act of 1937 and the associated Case Law that used to be the bread and butter of the old NEBOSH law modules. (Have these sort of things stopped being taught?) #10 well said. In the event of any accident or injury I doubt that any of the "can't be done" merchants will spring forward to your assistance and say " I said it was all right not to bother about guarding because it was difficult!" #14 well said. We should all be about producing solutions. In situations as described in the original question I have always mad the following statement: "It is nearly fifty years since the Americans put a man on the moon (unless you believe the conspiracy theories) and you are saying you cant solve this simple problem?" How would the Americans have dealt with the Apollo 13 disaster if they had taken the view that this is difficult so perhaps we shouldn't bother? To paraphrase the words of Gene Kranz: "doing nothing is not an option". It certainly shouldn't be for any safety professional who wishes to hold their head up high in the workplace. Rodger Ker

I am always surprised that when the "it can't be done" strategy has failed, the fall back cry is "we don't have endless amounts of money" and "blindly waving regulations and requiring a gold standard". Forty five years ago, (before the Americans either did or didn't put a man on the moon) as an engineering apprentice working in a large machine shop, long before guarding was commonplace, the magnetic bases with wire mesh or perspex attached as guards were commonplace and in regular use. They were, then, and still now, inexpensive, versatile and cost effective. Rodger Ker

I have just had a customer visited by HSE, I'm not their H&S advisor. They are an engineering company, they were told to guard their 3 old manual milling machines too. The comment from the inspector went along the lines of, as long as I see it on there, I'll be happy, what the operators do later I don't want to know about. He admitted the machines would be impossible to use, but he had to see the guards there. They can be guarded, it is very difficult and expensive for what is achieved, and interlocking is a LOT more, as to incorporate interlocking, and be in FULL compliance with HSE guidance on PUWER98, you could end up having to totally redesign the control system on the machine, that then in itself would then have to contain safety related parts, and so it goes on... I can recommend a supplier of guards I have been dealing with for years, & offer some guidance myself if you want, please PM. I actually have a manual milling machine myself, it's a Bridgeport Turret Mill. Is it guarded?... It's behind a locked door, so it is safe, no one can get at it! ;)

some great comments here my thoughts are these; in gereral terms UK employers have not invested in new kit as times have changed and thats one reason why we are no longer a leading manufacturing nation - its as simple as that -- having worked throught Europe and had the chance to measure one culture against another that is my conclusion so we should invest when times are good so as we can keep going in times of bad - poor investment is why we have such old kit around that is hard to guard etc. NB: these same employers who have no money to invest on manufacturing kit have plenty to spend on new cars etc!