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Asbestos guttering and downspouts, domestic client
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What duties does a householder have when employing a contractor to remove asbestos containing guttering and downspouts?
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Environmental law applies even to a domestic client so having a contractor that does not put the care etc. into asbestos as they should do comes back to the client [domestic or otherwise] via that area so get a proper contractor [it may cost you more!] - you can DIY it but environmental law still applies
It can be seen as a CDM job so again that law applies in that area and as the contractor is at work they would have to comply with CAW and CDM but neither CAW or CDM applies to a domestic person in the strict sense. However civil and common law applies and in the past a domestic client has been managed in a court where construction law was sited
all the above said if you get your contractor to sign a proper contract with U containing the appropriate words then it may be seen as U have done all that is reasonable to get on board a responsible person to undertake the work noting that U are not an expert and U may be seen to have discharged your duties
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Bob
Not aware of any environmental legislation which you refer to - can you quote your source?
Furthermore, H&S law does not apply to domestic clients as far as I'm concerned - the duty lies with the contractor.
Ray
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Rank: Super forum user
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Hmmm a little game of tennis here methinks?
It's my dad in law that is getting the guttering replaced, he's 70 odd and not rich at all. He has a contractor booked in to do the work, I just thought I should ask the question to keep him out of jail.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Ray have a good look at EPA 1990 and subsequent legislation including the Hazardous Waste regs - All apply to ALL persons at work or not, unless specified otherwise. The Householder is the Producer and not the contractor as many try to suppose.
Bob
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The EPA 1990 refers to waste disposal and statutory nuisance. Perhaps you should go back to basics and look at s3 hasawa 1974 where self employed persons have a duty towards people not in their employment (eg the customer). This puts the onus of the contractor to remove the asbestos cement safely and EPA 1990 will determine how it should be disposed of.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Bob et al
I have checked out the EPA, albeit a large document and I could have missed something and the Hazardous Waste Regulations. I have found nothing which puts a duty on the domestic client in the context of the original post. Indeed, the HWR Regulation 13 states:
(3) These Regulations operate in relation to asbestos waste not being domestic waste which is produced in the course of any of the activities of construction, modification, repair and maintenance (including structural works) or demolition of domestic premises or any part thereof, so as to treat any contractor engaged by a domestic occupier—
(a)as the producer; and .
(b)where the contractor does not engage another person as consignor, as the consignor, .
of the asbestos waste to the exclusion of the occupier.
No duty exists in health and safety for a domestic client with regards to asbestos removal, the duty lies with the contractor pursuant to HSWA s(2) and (3) and also CAW, MHSWR.
Ray
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Rank: Super forum user
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I appreciate that that CDM does not apply to domestic work undertaken by a domestic person however note that what I said was "......It can be seen as a CDM job so again that law applies in that area and as the contractor is at work....."
and thanks to Bob L re EPA 1990
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Rank: Forum user 
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Thank you all, I am please this has provided a little learning exercise.
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firesafety
Glad you got some insight and agree it was 'interesting' reading the different responses. Moreover, I'm still baffled what CDM has to do with your question...
Ray
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Rank: Super forum user
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In its simplest form see it this way; - the removal/ installation of a gutter is a CDM activity irrespective of what the gutter is made of and the asbestos regs do not talk about construction they talk about asbestos irrespective of where it is found
where a gutter is also asbestos then the asbestos regs also apply / where the gutter has a IR [ion radioactive] content then the IR regs also apply and so on
plus the work at height regs apply as do the manual handling regs etc.etc. so all must be accounted for as well as environmental alw
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Rank: Super forum user
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The question was about what duties the Householder has, though. I can't see that he has any duties under CDM, Manual Handling, Work at Height, Control of Asbestos, etc.
There might be potential grounds for a claim if the householder knew the material contained asbestos and didn't tell the contractor (although the contractor would probably be contributarily negligent), that's about all I can think of (specific to the asbestos issue).
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Rank: Forum user
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The ACM in question I am presuming is asbestos containing cement which if in a good state is none licensable to remove in a poor condition a notifiable none licensable product due to the changes to the asbestos regulations 2012 which will require the asbestos contractor to complete an online notification form to the HSE detailing the work they intend to carry out.
My advice would be to gain the services of a reputable asbestos removal company in your area who will supply a suitable & sufficient risk assessment / plan of work and have the records for the operatives who will be carrying out the work i.e. CAT B none licensable asbestos training as a minimum along with in date face fits for the respirators to be donned
At the end of the work be issued with a consignment note of the asbestos removed detailing the location the ACM is to be disposed of
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Rank: Super forum user
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gramsay wrote:The question was about what duties the Householder has, though. I can't see that he has any duties under CDM, Manual Handling, Work at Height, Control of Asbestos, etc.
There might be potential grounds for a claim if the householder knew the material contained asbestos and didn't tell the contractor (although the contractor would probably be contributarily negligent), that's about all I can think of (specific to the asbestos issue).
Gramasy - thanks for bringing some sensibility to the table.
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Rank: Forum user
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Not the same issue, but a lot of similarities and no prosecution for the hone owner even though he was apparently complicit.
It is quite clear in this case that the contractor was the one found in breach.
http://press.hse.gov.uk/...estos&cr=20-May-2014
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Rank: Super forum user
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gramsey etc.
the quote """ In its simplest form I see it this way; - the removal/ installation of a gutter is a CDM activity irrespective of what the gutter is made of and the asbestos regs do not talk about construction they talk about asbestos irrespective of where it is found
where a gutter is also asbestos then the asbestos regs also apply / where the gutter has a IR [ion radioactive] content then the IR regs also apply and so on
plus the work at height regs apply as do the manual handling regs etc.etc. so all must be accounted for as well as environmental law""" applies to the contractor not the domestic client - SORRY if I was not clear
The 'producer pays principal' applies and does not make a difference between a domestic or non- domestic client' - its the fact that somebody irrespective of their status has produced waste and they are accountable for that waste!
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Rank: Super forum user
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Bob
With respect, my post #7 clearly states the duty transfers to the contractor in respect to a domestic client pursuant to the HWR. Common sense says that Mrs Jones would not have a scooby what the regulations require...a contractor does, or should know.
Ray
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Rank: Super forum user 
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bob youel wrote: The 'producer pays principal'
How much would that be then?
(From a man of principle....................;-))
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Wow I didn't expect all this when I asked the original question?
Thanks to all for making this an interesting and informative thread.
The main point I have learned is I must stay away from my father in law's house when the work is getting done :-)
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Rank: Super forum user 
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I am not going to get chip into the ongoing debate as to what does and does not apply to the home owner. But, just to the original post, I would make reference to common law duty of care and, Occupiers Liability Act 1957 & 84 - Apart from that, as the Spanish would say, "nada".
I have to say though, just as a passing comment, cannot see how removing asbestos down-pipe and guttering is comes under CDM? I am looking at the definitions of construction work now, page 8 of L144, and I am baffled.
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jarsmith
Save you any trouble...CDM does not apply to a domestic client.
Ray
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Don't know what the OLA has to do with asbestos guttering either!
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Rank: Super forum user
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As Ray says CDM does not apply to the domestic client but it does apply to the contractor concerned
if the down spout was made of cast iron, plastic, wood, aluminum then CDM applies as its a construction activity to remove / install. In the same way CDM applies if the down spout etc. is asbestos its just the material that has changed not the act of removing/installing so both areas e.g. CDM & CAW apply to the contractor
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Rank: Super forum user 
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CDM applies to any and all construction works.
The 5th link down in your link Stuie explains this.
CDM kicks in from the second ANY construction related works is done by an "enterprise".
DIY is exempt I believe, but, I await correction.
It is merely the break for what is notifiable to HSE that is often misquoted with regard to CDM not being applicable.
As Jay says, it is what applies to the domestic client that can vary, but the "contractor"/"enterprise"/"company" DOING the work is bound by CDM and all other relevant regulations etc.
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Asbestos guttering and downspouts, domestic client
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