Fire - Ceiling tiles - Source of ignition close to a source of fuel Options  Watch this topic  Print this topic » Normal Threaded

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stonecold		#1 Posted : 24 June 2014 09:05:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		My maintainance deptarment want to store lots of spare ceiling tiles in very small room which contains a large electrical distribution board. They have said its ok because the tiles are non flammable so its not an issue storing them next to a large source of ignition. I disagree as altough the tiles my not be easily ignitable, they probably could still provide a source of fuel for a fire following an igintion. I do not know the actual fire rating of the tiles. Anybody have any thoughts on this, as i may need to bat them off with a strong argument for not storing the tiles in there.
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Hedgehog		#2 Posted : 24 June 2014 10:03:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user		Once you start to use such a room for storage, even for possibly non combustible materials, all sorts of other materials, many combustible, will then find their way in. You could put a metal barrier around the switchgear to prevent goods being stored too close, but then someone will carefully store items between the barrier and the switchgear. I once found such an area full of toilet tissue. As a general rule I would say no storage in such areas.
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firesafety101		#3 Posted : 24 June 2014 10:48:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		Stonecold you have to be strong and stand up to be counted here. Storage in any room containing live electrical equipment is not a good idea whatever the item. You need the whole area clear, not just in case of fire but for quick access to the switch gear.
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A Kurdziel		#4 Posted : 24 June 2014 11:42:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		Define “Storage in any room containing live electrical equipment is not a good idea whatever the item.” Does that mean I have to remove the filing cabinets from my office as my PC is live electrical equipment?
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jay		#5 Posted : 24 June 2014 12:21:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		I presume entry to the very small room containing a large electrical distribution board is restricted, with a sign highlighting the restriction. For safe electrical working, there should be adequate space for maintainance, including emergency maintainanace. This should be the primary reason not to store the tiles that impact on the space as that is likely to involve others who . The fact that you have described it as a very small room implies that there is unlikely to be adequate space. The combustibility of the tiles could be a secondary consideration (less/not important ?) , depending upon the materials used in the tile.
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stonecold		#6 Posted : 24 June 2014 12:27:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		Thanks for the replies the room is about 4 metres square..accessed through a normal sized doorway
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firesafety101		#7 Posted : 24 June 2014 16:49:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		A Kurdziel wrote: Define “Storage in any room containing live electrical equipment is not a good idea whatever the item.” Does that mean I have to remove the filing cabinets from my office as my PC is live electrical equipment? Please demonstrate you have the sense you were born with?
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mssy		#8 Posted : 24 June 2014 17:24:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		Girls! Please, calm down :) The key words are 'very small room'. This storage is probably not that much of a direct problem, but may be seen as the green light to store all manner of stuff in there later. If possible and reasonable, I'd keep the space clear
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firesafety101		#9 Posted : 24 June 2014 19:35:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		FireSafety101 wrote: A Kurdziel wrote: Define “Storage in any room containing live electrical equipment is not a good idea whatever the item.” Does that mean I have to remove the filing cabinets from my office as my PC is live electrical equipment? Please demonstrate you have the sense you were born with? A large electrical distribution board is not a PC and if it were to fail it would affect more than one office. I guess there would be an isolation switch in there that would need to be accessible at all times. Apologies for the short remark but I just expect more professionalism on here.
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PIKEMAN		#10 Posted : 25 June 2014 09:17:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		How about..............ensure access to switch gear is left clear. Install suitable smoke / fire detection equipment for early warning. Review Fire RA using a competent person, is compartmentation etc adequate. That's what I would do. BTSW how many times have I seen stuff stored in rooms with DBs etc in.....................lots.
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A Kurdziel		#11 Posted : 25 June 2014 09:23:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		Pikeman wrote: How about..............ensure access to switch gear is left clear. Install suitable smoke / fire detection equipment for early warning. Review Fire RA using a competent person, is compartmentation etc adequate. That's what I would do. BTSW how many times have I seen stuff stored in rooms with DBs etc in.....................lots. That's what we do. We can not afford to set aside empty rooms just because they have a control panel in them. Our people need somewhere to store their stuff. Of course they have to be properly looked after, access controlled etc. That's what being a professional H&S person is about- real solutions to real problems.
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Steve e ashton		#12 Posted : 25 June 2014 09:27:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		In the not so distant past it was a requirement of legislation that a 1metre clear gap be maintained in front and to the side of panels to allow access... That is the standard I still recommend. Sometimes needs barriers to prevent storage encroaching. And applies in small rooms as well as in large warehouse, production areas, shops etc etc ....
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firesafety101		#13 Posted : 25 June 2014 12:47:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		Stonecold can you please advise the size of the very small room containing the large distribution board as I think that may end this argument? Thanks
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kevkel		#14 Posted : 25 June 2014 13:18:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		Firesafety101, its 4 metres sq. See his previous posts.
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IanC9139		#15 Posted : 25 June 2014 13:39:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user		If it a room designed and constructed for the use of electrical switches etc - then that is all that should be there (alongside required safety equipment associated with the electrical aspect). Nuff said!
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firesafety101		#16 Posted : 25 June 2014 13:56:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		kevkel wrote: Firesafety101, its 4 metres sq. See his previous posts. Thanks kevkel
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firesafety101		#17 Posted : 25 June 2014 13:58:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		Stonecold does your company store a lot of "spare" items? If so I suggest they look at more designated storage areas?
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gramsay		#18 Posted : 25 June 2014 14:18:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		Isn't the size of the room a bit of a red herring? If we decide we have to maintain access to the switchgear, paint some lines on the floor or whatever at the distance you decide and ensure nothing is placed within them. I can't see how a ceiling tile, a chair or an old photocopier awaiting collection 4m away from the switch gear is significantly altering the risks or outcomes of a fire, but I appreciate you've expertise here FS101, mssy, etc.
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firesafety101		#19 Posted : 25 June 2014 16:16:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		What it boils down to is the suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment. If it is agreed to store the tiles are they in combustible packaging? Will it be the "thin end of the wedge"? Will somebody else have something spare to store somewhere? Is this worth getting all het up about? Whoever is responsible for the fra should be involved and make the right decision. Good luck from me.
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paul.skyrme		#20 Posted : 25 June 2014 17:32:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		Should companies be looking to breach recommendations, such as British Standards, which whilst not law, are actually cited by HSE as a good way to comply with the requirements of statute law?
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firesafety101		#21 Posted : 25 June 2014 19:36:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		Just had a thought, the room could be split into two by a full height partition, one layer of plasterboard would provide half hour fire resistance, then store whatever you want in there away from the electrics, with a half hour fire door?
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paul.skyrme		#22 Posted : 25 June 2014 20:10:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		Possible FS101, However, the partition would still "really" need to meet the BS requirements endorsed by HSE for switchgear clearance for compliance with EAWR... More info in this post! ;) When HSE endorse a BS as guidance for compliance with a statue law, such as EAWR, would you (not you specifically FS101) really want to deliberately break that guidance?...
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DP		#23 Posted : 26 June 2014 05:58:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		I always work to the 1 metre clearance and I've never had an issues and our premises are inspected regularly by local FOs. Storage is always an issue in most workplaces and it's about parties working together to meet sensible solutions. I don't see an issue with storage described here provided it's managed correctly and safe distances maintained how that's archived is a local matter. Bit confused as the post progressed though ( I'm no spark) is there not a difference between a distribution board a switchgear?
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stonecold		#24 Posted : 26 June 2014 07:37:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		Hi..Actually the room is 3 x 2 metres, (just checked) as for the tiles they have been removed. Generally the housekeeping standards etc at this site (large office 500 staff) is very high, but this room was seen as a bit of a hidey hole i think. I used the argument of fuel too close to igntion source, safe access to the panel and likely hood of it being used for storage for other items. No one really protested and the items were taken out. The room does have fire detection, breeze block unpainted walls, no carpets etc as it is specifically an electrical room. As such i agree that nothing should ever been stored in such a space.
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firesafety101		#25 Posted : 26 June 2014 13:03:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		RESULT Thanks for the update and well done.
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DP		#26 Posted : 26 June 2014 13:10:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user		Nice one fire safety, you've gone from enforcing a sterile room, offering a risk assessment based approach, to installing a fire rated wall. Either way you would have had a result mate.
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